“Think Alike?” Episode 8: Diverging Ideas, Shared Goal

Joe Zaki: I'm Joe. I'm a postdoc now at NYU in Andre Fenton's lab. And I completed my PhD in Denise's lab, from 2018 to 2024. We met, I remember, from my previous mentor, Steve Ramirez, when I was an undergrad working in his lab. he introduced me to you, which I think is. It's funny that my current mentor, Andre Fenton, I also met through my previous mentor. But. So I was working in Steve's lab, as an undergrad, studying memory and how memories are dynamic. And I was considering where to go to grad school. I was an undergrad at the time, and I was living in Boston, but my family's from New York, so I would visit New York frequently. and after Steve introduced me to you, I remember I reached out to you and I asked if I could come visit the lab. And in, what I learned to be very Denise fashion, I didn't know at the time. I received a PDF of a full day schedule from you, which, you know, I thought I was just going to, like, come by and. And, you know, meet you and meet the lab.

Zach Pennington: But.

Joe Zaki: But I gave, a talk to the lab and met with so many people. And so, I feel that that was kind of the. My first, like, core memory of meeting you. and then, since then, I visited the lab a few more times and sort of cemented that that's where I wanted to go to grad school and do my PhD in your lab.

Zach Pennington: I'm Zach Pennington. I'm a postdoc in Denise's lab here at Mount Sinai. I've been here for six years, and will be actually heading off in January to start my own lab at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. and Denise and I met, when we were both at UCLA. So I did my PhD at UCLA. Denise did her postdoc there, and we had met, there in journal clubs and whatnot and in the basement where the labs were. And, Yeah, I'll probably talk about how I, ended up joining Denise's lab later.

Denise Cai: I'm Denise Cai. I'm faculty in the neuroscience department at Mount Sinai, having the honor, and privilege of mentoring Zach and Joe here. and so they already said how we met. But, the way I remember it is that, so Zach and I were, at UCLA, and Zach was a really smart and highly opinionated, graduate student, in Michael Fanzo's lab. And I remember anytime I had questions about mouse behavior, I Was like, oh, my gosh, I should go to Zach because he is really knowledgeable in this area. And so, you know, I know Zach will talk about later, but while I was starting my lab and I was talking to Zach about ideas, about fear conditioning and learning and memory, I just remember thinking, like, wow, he would be really great, you know, to, have in my lab. But, you know, as his friend, I just want him to go to the best lab possible if I could help him and give him any advice. And, while he was looking for, postdocs, I invited him to come practice his job talk in my lab. And that's how I recruited him and, you know, got him in. and then Joe, my dear friend and good colleague Steve Ramirez was telling me, oh, my gosh, like, Joe Zaki, like, he's amazing. You, should try to convince him to go to your lab for grad school. And again, for both of them, I was just starting my lab and, after Joe gave his presentation, I was hooked. And I was like this person with so much enthusiasm, a ton of experience. yeah, like, we, as in the lab, I. And the lab worked really hard to recruit Joe, into my lab, and, started. Still. Other people to this day are like, you're the Joe Zaki stealer. I'm like, yes, I am. I won that battle. So.

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Denise Cai: Well, Zach, since you said you were going to share about how you came join my lab, do you want to talk about that?

Zach Pennington: Yeah, sure. So, I remember I was sort of at the end of graduate school and figuring out what I was going to do next. And the way that I did that is reached out to a bunch of people that I trusted and who have been through sort of similar situations, of finding a postdoc or whatever. I wasn't even sure if I wanted to do that. and Denise was one of the people that I reached out to, just to talk about, you know, what I. What my interests were and what I might want to do. And I remember sitting outside at UCLA, just coming to Denise as a friend, and I was telling her what I was interested in. And Denise says, well, it sounds like you want to join my lab. And, I was like, yeah, whatever, Denise. and she was like, why don't you come and give a practice job talk? just to prep, you know, in a couple of months after I move. And I said, okay, yeah, that sounds great. Trip to New York. and I came to Sinai, and, you know, it just seemed like such an incredible place and environment to be. you know, one of the things that has just been sort of a through line for my experience in Denise's lab, is kind of following your joy and following your values and, be with people that make you feel good about yourself and who you respect and admire. And that was just everywhere in my, you know, my visit to. To Sinai. So, and the rest is sort of history. I just had to. Had to join.

Joe Zaki: Yeah, I mean, the. I guess one final point about that, the story of when I would visit New York is, you know, I remember when I was going through the process of choosing which grad school I wanted to go to and which what type of mentor I wanted is that one of the big questions everyone would ask is, you know, what, you should decide what grad school you want to go to and, you know, what lab you want to join based on the type of mentor that you want to have. I had no idea what type of mentor I wanted to have. I, didn't know what grad school is all about. But when I would visit and I noticed how, you know, like, when. When I would get a full day schedule from you, it's like you had planned everything out. It's like you had a vision for. For everything. And I realized pretty early on that you don't mess around. And I think that that was a, I was like, I need that sort of energy. And so it was one of those sort of. You don't know how to put your finger on it. But that, that was the sort of, like, atmosphere I wanted to be around. I think that that was a. In the back of my mind as I was choosing grad school. So that was a big determining factor, I think.

Denise Cai: well, I guess I'll talk a little bit about, how I choose people in my lab in general. And I guess, like, as I think back across my whole life, really, this is like my philosophy of how I make, like, all decisions in my life, which Zach touched on. I'm not like a real practical person, nor am I an efficient person. But, when I'm looking for people in lab, actually, like, I don't. I often like not looking, but, like, people come, right? And, my idea is that if there's magic, then you just gotta make it happen. And, I think how I think about it is that, like, does talking to them and the idea of working with them and actually like, thinking through projects, does that spark joy for me? Does that spark joy for them? And is what they are bringing, in terms of their experience and their perspective and their, abilities, intersect with what we have in our lab to bring. And together can we answer a question we couldn't otherwise do individually and that there's no, other lab that they could work with in which they could answer that question better? And I think, with both Zach and Joe, that was a very easy decision and that they both brought, something very unique to the lab. And I think for Zach, as I mentioned, Zach, you're the person I really respected in terms of your knowledge about the field and, the person I would go to. Like, okay, what about this experimental design? How do I interpret this? and Joe, your enthusiasm for science is infectious, and, your CV was insane, before you even started grad school. So I knew that you had a track record of success. but I think the other thing that's really important to me is not only can I see how you guys can benefit from the lab, and how you can be successful in the lab, but also I really consider, can I help you grow? and in that if I don't know your weaknesses and you're not going to get hired in my lab because that means I don't know who you are. And, I think, you know, we talk a lot about like, how you can grow my lab and, and areas that

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Denise Cai: I can help you and what you can bring. And so it's like a two way street.

Joe Zaki: Yeah, I think that's an interesting sort of like, segue into the, like, what are the goals of the mentorship relationship? And I think the first thing I thought about, when I was thinking about how we were setting up this mentorship relationship is how dynamic it was. It has been through the years. You know, it's like their early phases of learning experimental designs and learning the literature and then writing grants and grueling experiments and. And I, I feel like the, the goals of the mentorship relationship haven't been the same. And this is actually one of my favorite things about you as a mentor, actually, is how you've accommodated the different mentorships that I needed at different stages. So one story that I remember is that when I was writing my, F31, the way I remember that happening is that it was locked down and I didn't, I had to. You know, we all had to stop all of our experiments and I didn't know what to do during that time. And Denise was like, maybe you should write your F31 now. And, and the, the deadline of it was like, two or three weeks away. So, I think this has also been a, A big growing point for me is that, and you say this often, that you sort of throw us into the deep end, but you're there to catch us if, if we need it. And as I was writing down, yeah, you won't let me drown. And I, I remember when I was writing that F31, it was approaching the end, the deadline, and I felt like I had been rewriting it from scratch I don't know how many times. And I broke down, and in the evening, I called you, like, crying, and I felt like I couldn't, make it. And I remember you talking me down then. And there was this moment during that time, during that phone call that I felt like I saw a glimpse that you had a vision that I didn't quite see yet. And I just needed to sort of trust the process. And I, I, I felt that a few times throughout the mentorship relationship. I feel like that's sort of like I don't know how to see this through. But if I trust you, we can, you know, we can make it through. And I think that's been an important, sort of, I don't know, like, the, the fact that I was able to trust you as a mentor, even though I didn't see the end of it, I think was a really important thing facet of our relationship.

Denise Cai: And then you got the F31.

Joe Zaki: And then I got the F31.

Denise Cai: Wait, when did you know you could trust me?

Joe Zaki: I think it's not that I didn't trust you before. It's that I, I didn't know what the vision was.

Denise Cai: Yeah.

Joe Zaki: But I knew that you had the vision for the outcome. And so if I just trusted you with it, then it would be successful, and that was helpful.

Denise Cai: Thanks, Joe.

Zach Pennington: Well, okay. So this brings up for me an interesting topic of, like, trusting you, Denise, is probably because I think Joe and I joining your lab, being some of your very first trainees. It's an interesting decision to make because, you know, sometimes in picking a mentor, right, you, you pick based upon what you hear from other people who were in their lab and, you know, joining a new, faculty member's lab. Like, you don't necessarily have that to go on. So I think it's an interesting sort of thing to talk about. And I was kind of thinking about actually, you know, beyond, like, the, the good vibes, you know, when I, when I came to visit, sort of some of the Things that went into my decision actually to join a junior faculty member's lab because I think that there are, like, huge advantages to joining young faculty lab. So I had done graduate school in Michael Fanzo's lab, who's, very well known in the field of learning and memory and stress. And he is, you know, a pretty senior person. not old or anything like that.

Denise Cai: Just very well established, very wise. Established.

Zach Pennington: Established, yeah. And, you know, while I was in graduate school, I also saw, a newer faculty like Kate Wasam, who was Victor's junior faculty at the time. And I just sort of watched her from afar. And I was kind of amazed by Kate Wasam and how you approached her science. I mean, still to this day, she's incredible. but I think, you know, seeing her and a couple other junior faculty, like, how they approached science was just. I think there was a level of strategy and energy in it that's just different than someone who is more established,

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Zach Pennington: who can be riskier and, you know, who has like this huge track record. And so I, think when I was, you know, looking for postdocs, I was actually kind of interested in working with someone who was younger and newer and, and has that sort of just like, enthusiasm and like, early on they don't know what's gonna happen, but they're excited. and it's so fun to be in a lab, I think, like that now. But also, you know, I think that junior faculty are much more. Oftentimes, not that Michael wasn't invested in me, but junior faculty tend to, I think, be much more invested in their trainees careers in part because, they m. They sort of need their trainees.

Denise Cai: I depend on you guys for my livelihood and my tenure and, you know, my success.

Zach Pennington: Whereas Michael already had a track record of several trainees that had gone on to do amazing things. Yeah. And so there's a real excitement in that. And at the same time, there's, there's a risk in it. Right. Of going. I don't know how this person's going to be. So, you know, you reach out and you ask people like, oh, what do you think about Denise? And whatnot. But I think one of the things that you did that was very helpful to me is, for everyone in Denise's lab, or who's thinking m about joining Denise's lab, they. They write out a specific aims page. And I think that some people are very intimidated by this idea of like, oh, I haven't joined your lab. You want me to Write a specific aims page. But for me, I was, it was so great because it allowed me to see how I would work with you because it was, because it wasn't for you to like judge, right. Ah, just the quality of my ideas, but to get an idea of what the back and forth in scientific communication would be and how, you know, how we would go about developing a project. Because you know, like I had worked with Michael and Michael was kind of hands off and you could kind of do whatever you wanted and so, and like he wasn't in the lab a lot. And so I knew that if I worked with a junior faculty who was like a micromanager, I would go nuts. and it was in that process, that back and forth with you where it was like, it was just the right amount of feedback, right? And like there was a flexibility in it where it's like I would get guidance from you, but I wouldn't be told exactly what to do. And so, you know, even before joining your lab, I had a little bit of an idea of what a working relationship with you would be like, which is really helpful. and again, I, I, I can't speak highly enough about, joining a new faculty member's lab. I think it's really great. But you do have to do like a little bit more research.

Denise Cai: And well, it was also hard for you guys, right? Like being a brand new lab and you guys had to set everything up and there are many challenges, right? So maybe you guys want to talk about some of the hard times of, you know, being mentored by junior faculty and starting a new lab, starting.

Zach Pennington: In a new lab. Everything is, everything is new, right? And all the behaviors that you're studying and all the techniques, you're like getting them off the ground. And plenty of things just like did not work to start out with. Like I remember like, oh, we were ordering mice and it was from maybe the wrong vendor and they behaved completely different than what we were used to. Or there was concerns about like the new conditioning chambers and you know, and I think there's also like, you know, figuring out what you, what exactly the vision of the lab is going to be. I mean, you had a good idea, Denise, but it was also, you know, coming into fruition. Like what? Oh yeah, what we were going to be doing. and you know, I think for me that was really exciting because I got to take part in element of the lab versus like coming in and going like, okay, this is established. You're going to work on this project, you know, make it what you want, but, like, with you, it was like, okay, let's. Let's figure this out. And, you know, I think joining a new lab, it can take a little bit longer to sort of get things off the ground. But at the end of that, I feel like, you know, I feel like, personally, like, I have so much more sort of ownership of what we accomplish together.

Denise Cai: Yeah.

Zach Pennington: Like, I really got to help build this from the ground up. So, I don't know. That's my kind of take on it.

Denise Cai: Yeah. Joe, any hardships?

Joe Zaki: I don't know about hardships, but I do think that there's also a, power to seeing the surprising ways in which things can go wrong, and, you know, being part of the troubleshooting and fixing of that. I think, you know, there's an empowerment to. In the future, you know, setting up one's own lab, seeing it being set up, you know, from. From scratch, all things that can go wrong. It sort

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Joe Zaki: of is a. Is a huge learning experience. I think it makes it easier than inheriting, like, fully functional systems that, you know, haven't gone wrong in years. For example, you know, I've definitely felt.

Denise Cai: Having, you know, been in my lab and being mentored by me. I'm curious, is there something, you know, from our relationship that you learned that you would want to take with you, as if you were to start your own lab or. Zach, you are starting your own lab. And, what it is that from our experience, you're like, I'm not doing that. Not saying, like, it was, you know, bad, right? Like this, not for, but like, that you would want to do differently in your lab because we're all different people and different mentors.

Joe Zaki: So I can start with one thing I definitely want to carry forward, and in fact, not just in. In the lab, but sort of in my life that I've embodied, is being very purposeful about my word choice. And this is. This is one of my favorite things now. I think the. I was. When I had just started grad school, I can. I can remember how I would use terms sort of imprecisely or, you know, not think super carefully about what I meant when I was using words. And this is something that, Denise, you beat out of me. and so one. The. The main story for this, of course, I think we all know, is a lab meeting that I gave, to a lab where I pulled up the powerpoint.

Denise Cai: Was this your first lab meeting?

Joe Zaki: It was my. Either my first or second lab meeting. So it was pretty early on for me.

Denise Cai: Yeah, I just want to give the context.

Joe Zaki: Yeah. And, yeah, so it's pretty early on. And I, I'm not very comfortable with public speaking, and it's a new project that, you know, all the things. And I pull up the PowerPoint presentation, I'm in the presenter view, and I'm like, hello, everyone. I'm going to be giving my lab meeting about the following. And I read the title of, of the slide, and I remember, Denise, you're like, I. I'm not sure exactly what you're about to talk about, but I think if you're going to talk about what I think you're going to talk about, this title is not representative of that. And in, you know, I was flustered and I was like, you know, maybe I'll. I'll change that title for titles for, presentations moving forward. And you suggested, Denise, that I leave the presentation and I highlight that title and delete it, right then and there and write in a new title that was more representative of what I was going to talk about. And I, you know, in real time, sort of struggled for about a minute to try to come up with something, and I couldn't in. In the moment. And Denise, you said, if you can't come up with a title now, it's better to have no title at all than to have a misleading one. And that is in an imprint on my brain ever since. And it was pretty intense in the moment. and then the rest of the presentation, I was on edge. but since then, I think that it's also sort of a representative of the way you've sort of hammered into me that when I'm going to use a term to think really like, is that the term that I mean to use? And I, I feel so empowered about my communication now and a lot more confident. In my presentation, skills because of that. And, you know, that's in science and in life communication in general. and I think it's. It's made me a stronger communicator. That's something that I, as a mentor, because now I'm also thinking about, you know, what sort of characteristics do I want to embody as a mentor. And I would really hope to, you know, build this. This trait in my mentees of being, very good communicators. I think it's natural for us to be imprecise with our language when we start out.

Denise Cai: I mean, Zach, you've been thinking a lot about setting up your lab, right? So this is actually like, something I'm sure you thought a lot about.

Zach Pennington: The part about what I would do differently is. Is very hard to answer because. Not just because we're on a podcast, but I. If I could be, you know, a fraction of the mentor that you have been to me 

Denise Cai: oh, my goodness.

Zach Pennington: I would consider myself a huge success, you know?

Denise Cai: Oh. Ah, my gosh.

Zach Pennington: you know, I think there are so many things that I could say, but, you know, there are a few, things that I think encapsulate you as a mentor, as a director of a lab that I hope I can carry, forward. I mean, one is building a sense of community and mutual respect within the lab. and you have done that in so many different ways from starting out, joining the lab and doing. I remember when we all did an

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Zach Pennington: escape room together early on, maybe in the first month I was there, to lab meals, to, like, during the pandemic, when you would cook meals at lab office, you were so, you know, and there was just a sense of family that I think makes, you know, science is difficult being in a lab. It's just. There's so many uncertainties, and there was the certainty coming to this lab that I knew, that I would be surrounded by people that I could respect and trust and that I would. I mean, you all were my family, so if I can do that, I, think another thing that you have really done and that I hope to do with my, trainees, is to be completely transparent. You know, like, it's funny that Joe talks about carefulness in words, and I know you're careful, but you're also just, like, incredibly honest and open and some. And, like, you're unafraid to be wrong, you know? and I think that in being open about that and just being able to go like, okay, I could be wrong, but here's what I'm thinking. Like, I didn't have to second guess about your mentorship or your views of things. Like, I could just come to you, and I could also be sort of vulnerable. I could be vulnerable with you, because of that. And, you know, I think those. Those are two big things.

Denise Cai: So I think, something that really helped me as a PI was that when, I was a postdoc, as I became deathly allergic to mice, and I do mouse research, and I learned how to delegate and trust other people, train and then trust other people to do the work. And I think I also learned how to create buy in. And I think this goes with the, like, you know, you gotta do with sparks, joy. And so when I started my lab, like, everyone always says, like, oh, when you're, you know, starting your lab, like, you are your own best postdoc. But because I couldn't touch mice, and I do mouse research, that was really hard. I think I was incredibly lucky that, some folks, from UCLA came with me to Mount Sinai and Zach being one of them. And I just, like, trusted Zach's rigorousness of the science and his ability to mentor and teach other people. And I know, like, not a lot of people are able to, you know, hire people that they know so well. and I think also, yeah, I was really good at asking for help. And, this came from, like, you know, asking my lab, like, to help me write grants. And so Zach actually, how many R01s did you write? Like, two or three, maybe more. I don't know. And, like, there is no shame in me, like, asking for help. And, this is also true of, like, me asking, like, other faculty mentors for help for, like, who should I hire? How should I fire someone? how do I manage grants? How do I convince someone to, you know, like, help me with something? and especially, like, with grant writing, I ask for a lot of help because, I wasn't a very good writer. I didn't have a lot of experience. And I remember, one of my faculty mentors read my grant, and I love this. He said, your words sometimes get in the way of the elegance of your science. And, like, that might sound like a backhanded compliment but, like, it was. I loved it because it was exactly true. And I needed a lot of help. And people told me, like, you're an amazing speaker. It's so exciting. And then I read your grants that I'm bored to tears. And so reaching, out to other faculty really helped. And my institution actually, you know, Sinai introduced me to our grant writer, Sima, who a lot of us worked with. And she taught me a lot about grant writing and how to tell stories in a written form. And so, I think having so much help writing grants because, like, at a medical school is, like, you know, that's a lot of what we do early on, try to raise money, apply to all these foundation awards, then really gave me a lot more time with you guys and to focus on the research. So I want to talk about this, which is, early on in my career, right? Like, so super imposter syndrome. And I remember being scared of you guys, Like, I remember thinking, how could I possibly train you guys when you guys are so much smarter than me? And what if you guys figured out that you actually, like, joined my lab and, like, I'm not as smart and not as capable, and, like, what have you actually figured out? Like, you know, that I'm not as good as you thought I was, and the lab wasn't as good environment as you thought it would be. And I think that actually led me to be more hands off, because I was like, well,

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Denise Cai: you guys are smart, you know, like, you guys will know what to do, and we'll figure it out. And I was kind of, like, almost afraid to impose my ideas too much or mentor you guys so much. And I was, you know, I always say, like, oh, just hire smart people. And that's totally true. but I'll give an example. So when Joe first joined my lab, right, like, his CV's ridiculous. Like, he has so much experience. And I was like, oh, for sure. Like, Joe will know how to, like, do his own thing. And Joe is very curious. You're very curious, Joe. You're very enthusiastic, and you had lots of questions, and you, like, tried lots of different things, which is awesome. But then at some point, it's like, okay, Joe, like, you're doing too many things. Like, why are you doing surgeries on pure prone cortex when my lab doesn't study that? You know, And. And I think it was like, that I realized, like, okay, like, Joe's, like, in the deep hole. We need to, like, pull him back in. And, being my second grad student, and I think you guys have told me, like, you know, I need to help you guys focus a little bit earlier. And I definitely think that's something I learned from you, Joe, is that graduate students need mentorship, no matter how much experience they've had in the past, and they come to join, you know, my lab or whatever for that mentorship. And that's something that I, need to really, you know, enact on. and I also think that's true for postdocs. Like, I remember in the beginning, I, mean, like, also, like, Zach, like, you're so mature, right? And so I was like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, Zach can just, like, do everything on his own. But then I also realized, but I'm missing the joy of, like, working together, right? And I think, like, when I got more involved and, like, really dug in and, like, I. I felt like, you know, both. It was beneficial, both for me in terms of like, being able to enjoy and be a part of the research. But I think it also made our science better, when we got to really, like, argue it out and not always agree. and often we all disagree. And I think this is. Actually, I would love for you guys to chat about this. And I mean, this is part of the, like, the last answer to the last question is, you know, one of the things I'm most proud of of our lab and Zach mentioned this is, I always hope that we create a safe space for us to disagree because, you know, like, if we're all searching for the truth, then it should be a safe space to, you know, like, share what it is that, we're thinking so we can get there. And, like, if we really care about diverse backgrounds and diverse perspectives, because we need to take different ideas and integrate them or try things that fail, then we really need to create a safe space for a very low bar to, like, express any ideas or disagree with someone. And a very low bar for, like, anyone to feel like they have. That they feel empowered, right, to, like, speak up and ask questions. but that also then maybe leads to some, like, really intense conversations. And anyway, so I was just curious, like, what you guys thought about that.

Zach Pennington: We talked about transparency before and talked about, you know, creating a safe space for everyone. And I actually, this kind of fits my example from before comes into this. And one of the things, not just, like, scientifically, creating a space where everyone can share their ideas, but also be corrected and be corrected in sort of a loving way. Like, I remember, like, I'm a big cursor. I cuss a lot. And I. I did. I do less now, but I remember, you know, at some point, you know, in lab meeting, dropping an F bomb. And, like, to me, like, prior to that moment, like, I had somewhat found, cursing in science, kind of. Like, I found it a little bit, like, disarming. Like, I found, like, I found it, like, comfortable, right, because it felt less formal. but I remember you saying something to me afterwards about it, saying that, like, it can come off cross as aggressive. And you told me that, and it was feedback that I had gotten from you about how I might make a young trainee feel. And, you know, it was not my intention at all, right? It was never my intention. And my goal is the same as yours to make everyone feel comfortable. And actually. And I. And I just realized in that moment, like, oh, like, this is not how. This is not. This might not have the effect that I want it to have. and I'm so thankful that you were willing to. To tell me that and tell me in a way that, like, you know, it wasn't reprimanding me, it was just enlightening. And so being able to, like, teach

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Zach Pennington: each other one things, even when it's uncomfortable.

Denise Cai: Yeah.

Zach Pennington: And also, you know, being willing to be open to that. That I am fallible and you're fallible. And like, I think that you've modeled that later is like, oh, I. I've approached this wrong and I. And you've been open about things that, that you've worked on, like your facial expressions. Okay, so. So Denise.

Denise Cai: Yeah.

Zach Pennington: If. If someone is giving a talk, at least in the past, and she's really unimpressed, she won't necessarily say something, but like, it was sometimes very obvious or by her facial expression and. Or sometimes she would say something and she would talk about how, like, she's walked that back. and it's. It's something that she's learned how to do and like, how to give the most constructive feedback, you know, which is not always complete honesties. And so, you know, I think having a mentor who's willing to share their, frailties, their. Their sort of areas where they're working with has allowed me to do that too. And I think creates, an environment where it's like, okay, we're all. We're all improving together.

Denise Cai: The other feedback, well, you guys gave me, right? So, like, I. I've always really appreciated that, like, you guys always give me feedback too, because I think, you know, like, the open communication, like our, rule of lab, there's no passive aggressiveness. Like, you just have to communicate. It's explicit or doesn't exist. And I remember, I mean, I asked you guys, like, what feedback you guys had for me and correct me if I remember it wrong, but I think you guys said, well, Denise, you need to make it clear to particularly like, early graduate students that just because you suggest an experiment doesn't mean they have to go do it. And I was like, oh, okay. Because, like, I guess, you know, I'm pretty enthusiastic and maybe like, persuasive. And I. So I have to constantly, like, keep that in mind. But like, I still suggest all the things. But then like, I always talk to, you know, the person, the trainee, and say like, okay, let's look at your pie. Like, what are your priorities? Like, do all the things, you know, fit into your time? And if not, let's prioritize. And you don't have to do anything. And you don't, you don't have to do, like, you definitely don't have to do anything I say. And like, you know, we can help prioritize. You don't have to do it all at the same time. And that was like, extremely good feedback because I think, I didn't know, like, you guys were super stressed about trying to do everything I suggested because, you know, you guys, like, look like you're all calm and cool, but in the background, you know, like. Right. You're like treading. What is it like the duck thing? The head is calm, the feet are like. What's the, what's the that thing?

Joe Zaki: Yeah, I remember this conversation. I think is. It was also. It was, in the broader conversation of a new year. And Denise, you know, I really love this, this thing that you do where we, at the beginning of a new year, we set out our goals of sort of like short, medium and long term goals, which I think is, has been really helpful for me. And I still do this for myself now to think about, you know, to make sure to make steady progress but not lose sight of the big picture of, you know, where the direction that I want to head. And I, I remember when we, we came together to think about how to give you that feedback. And I remember after that realizing that, you know, we're all changing and, and hoping to get better. And I realized how receptive you could be to feedback and changing your mentorship style. Which also I think made me learn that mentors don't necessarily have to be one way. You know, like, we can learn from mentees and mentors and, you know, accommodate, different mentorship styles. Yeah. And because I remember being overwhelmed because every week and with another meeting with you be like, more experiments, like, there isn't enough time in the day for all those experiments.

Denise Cai: Should we discuss whether mentors and mentees should think alike?

Zach Pennington: You and I for sure don't think alike.

Denise Cai: Okay.

Zach Pennington: A lot of things scientifically, we have a lot in common, but I think also, we approach science very differently.

Denise Cai: Yeah. I mean, can you give some examples?

Zach Pennington: I mean, I, I'm trying to think of a specific example. You might have one. But I think that, you know, you are much more, you're much riskier than I am. and like, thinking of the biggest, most exciting idea. And me, I very much like from the start, I'm just like, it's never going to work. And I want to like, have something that's very concrete.

00:40:00

Zach Pennington: And, maybe I'M a more incremental scientist, than you are. We're all on a spec on many different spectrums. And I think that, I mean everyone's different. but I really have enjoyed working with you because you're so different. And I think that, you know, it gives room for different people to complement one another. You know, we were all the same then. We would approach science the same, and we'd have no real innovation.

Denise Cai: Anything of example where we thought differently that led to some kind of innovation or success.

Joe Zaki: I have not an example of a story that isn't exactly that, but is on this topic. I think I really, it's. This is a tricky question because I think it seems to me the way you've designed your lab is that everyone thinks differently, but mainly are common in that everyone's highly opinionated. And so then that promotes a lot of healthy discussion. And is that in conjunction with a safe space where we can disagree? I think is a really healthy combo where, you know, we can learn from each other and you know, be greater than we would be apart. And so one story I remember is, within the first year after I joined the lab, we did this retreat upstate where, you know, the lab went for a few days and stayed together. And I remember you, you created this prompt where we would all read this piece called Strong Inference chooses, this piece that's highly, in favor of highly structured hypothesis driven projects. And that is the way to do science. And so then the, the way it was designed was. All right, hash it out. What do you guys think is hypothesis driven science or exploratory science of the other end of it? The, the better way of doing science. And you know, if I'm, Zach and I agree on many things, but I think this is one thing that we, for, you know, we've known each other it's like seven years now. We completely to this day disagree on and have disagreed on throughout the seven years. and that was sort of where it was born, you know, where he created the space where you're like, discuss what you agree and disagree on. And I think Zach and I have learned a lot from each other. I think from these conversations of consistently disagreeing. So then as a broader message, I think that isn't, that is a great example of where not like, people who disagree with one another. Creating that sort of space is a healthy space and a good way that, you know, people should be necessarily disagree with each other.

Denise Cai: At the end of the day, we share some core values in our scientific thinking. And I, and, And, we share core values about how to create the scientific community. and I think, I think that's been really important because if you're not all in it to win it then it is really difficult. and that if your goals don't align. And I think one of the things I've, you know, I feel like what's been amazing about our lab is everyone bends over backwards to help each other. for example, Joe, how many authors did you have on your paper?

Joe Zaki: I think it's around 20.

Denise Cai: Okay. And Zach, I think on your most recent paper, you also have quite a.

Zach Pennington: Lot between 10 and 20.

Denise Cai: Okay, yeah. yeah. And I think, like, yeah, so I think. I think creating like, some core values and like, you know, even though we disagree, we all work together to help each other. And I think that's something that's. Has been really important. But I think the other thing, like, so I tried to actually hire people that think differently than me because I would find myself, like, it would be so boring, right, if everyone thought the same thing. but I also feel like, you know, like, Zach, I can anticipate your questions. And so, like, even when you're not there, when you leave me, when you leave our lab next year, I will still be able to, like, critically ask those questions in my mind. And that's something I have learned from you. Right. And so, like, in that sense, I'm learning more or, thinking more like you, and similar to Joe. And so, And I know Joe can guess, like every word that's going to come out of my mouth in terms of, like, writing, a grant or something. and so, you know, I think.

Zach Pennington: That presentations you, you, your voice is with me every slide ever. Like, I will have that forever. Like, you know, oh, did you put a graph in your slide? And you're. And if you're going to put that graph, you're going to talk about it, right? You're going to explain the X and the Y axis. Right. You're not just going to assume that people know. and, you know, does the title tell you the graph is what the slide is going to be on? like, how to present.

00:45:00

Zach Pennington: Yes, I will carry you with me forever.

Denise Cai: My voice will be your head forever.

Joe Zaki: That was actually the last thing that I noted is that, although I don't think mentors and mentees necessarily need to think alike, and maybe it's healthy that they don't for diversity of thought, I've found that I have sort of become a mini Denise in some ways. You know, it's like now I find myself giving feedback to other people on their, their slides exactly like this. I, I, I, I remember a few weeks ago, I said something like, if this is going to be, if you're going to put this on your slide, whatever you put on your slide, you have to talk about. I was like, oh, my God. That's what Denise would say. And, and I think that's, that's great. You know, that that really highlights the way that we learn from each other. And, you know, even if we think differently, we can, that we, that's a perfect opportunity to learn from each other.

Denise Cai: Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Zach. So good to chat with you guys. Thanks for dropping your pearls of wisdom.

Joe Zaki: Yeah, this was fun.

Zach Pennington: Very fun. Thank you, Denise and Joe.