In this episode, Hannah Lichtenstein and Mikayla Kendall describe their mentoring relationship, covering how they navigated busy and ever-changing undergraduate schedules and diverse learning styles, as well as the power of “mentoring up” and asking for help. They share how they’ve kept open to a variety of future career options, and how learning from mistakes became a cornerstone of growth for each of them. The conversation also explores how to talk about burnout with your mentor or mentee and the importance of supportive relationships that extend beyond the lab.
Episode 9
Hannah Lichtenstein: Hi. My name is Hannah Lichtenstein. I'm a PhD candidate in the Bolton Lab at Georgia State University Neuroscience Institute. I am in my fourth year of my PhD program. I just started the fourth year, and my general research interests, and the project I'm working on for my dissertation are focused on the impacts of early life adversity on microglia mediated brain development, with a particular focus on the central nucleus of the amygdala. Happy to be here.
Mikayla Kendall: Hi, Hannah. I’m Mikayla. I am in my last year at Georgia State University as a neuroscience major. My research interests lie in improving health equity, and that comes in the form of either early life adversity or health policy. Right now, I'm still figuring out which direction I want to go.
Hannah Lichtenstein: It's so exciting that we're here today on this podcast about mentorship, because you were kind of my first undergrad that joined the lab as a new student, because the only other undergrad I had had before that was, Faith, and she, had been in the lab for, I think, honestly, before I even started grad school.
Mikayla Kendall: Wait, I didn't know that. I didn't know I was your first starting mentee.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah. So, I thought it was kind of the perfect person to be on a podcast about mentorship because you've been with me since the start of your time in a lab. but I was thinking maybe we could talk a little bit, reflect on how we met, and just our first impressions of each other and kind of getting started as, an undergraduate research assistant on my project. I'm pretty sure that we met through Dr. Briggs, through Faith. Maybe I think you can talk about that a little bit more because I think Faith just told me about you, and I was like, yeah, sounds great. I'd love to meet her.
Mikayla Kendall: Yes. So I started my undergrad experience with my eye completely on going to med school, just being a doctor, because my main goal was, like I said, to improve health equity. But when I was talking to Dr. Briggs, who is another one of my mentors, she was listening to my interests, and she was like, it sounds like you would be interested in research, and I know a lab that seems like it would be the perfect fit for you. So she connected me to Faith, and then from there, I talked to Faith, and I just started falling more in love with this lab I had never even met. And I was reading Dr. Bolton's work, and then finally one day Faith was like, hey, I know we talked a while ago, would you be interested in joining the lab? And so from there she connected me to Hannah and Hannah reached out to me. And my first impression was of the lab was that they were so welcoming. And immediately right off the bat I had thought it would be a limitation to not really know where I wanted to go. But they were like, that's completely normal. Like this is the time to figure out what you want to do.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah. I think Even during the PhD program for me, even though I had decided in undergrad pretty much the first week that I was going to go on a PhD track and not a medical school track, even starting a PhD program, you don't necessarily know what you want to do after you graduate. So I think as an undergraduate researcher, it's super accepted to just feel your way through and try and understand what your place is for higher education. I remember when we first met in the lab, we were talking about how to stay organized. And I remember you showing me your planner and your calendars and your Notion. And I said, this girl, she's me. Like we're the same person. Because I’m also super organized in that way and have a million different calendars in a million different places. There's, I promise there's a method to the madness, as I'm sure you understand.
Mikayla Kendall: There definitely is. You need the calendar for something, you need the Notion for to do list. Like everything has --
Hannah Lichtenstein: Exactly. Yeah! So I think just right off the bat, we got along so well. And one of the things that I first noticed about you, Mikayla, was that you just learned so quickly. We would have a conversation about my research topic or discussing one of Dr. Bolton's papers. And I felt like I could really have this high-level conversation with you about science and research despite you just joining the lab.
00:05:00
Hannah Lichtenstein: So that was just… It made it so easy to, you know, work together and start this mentoring relationship and really get some good work done in the lab, which I thought was super cool.
Mikayla Kendall: Yeah, and a part of that I feel like is that one of the first questions along with like, “How do you stay organized?” that you asked me was, “How do you learn?” And I feel like nobody has ever asked me exactly how I best learn, but I was able to say, hey, I learned best by you showing me and then doing it alongside of you and then doing it myself. And from there we just had a process, and we just followed those steps every time. And I also really learned through questions and there's not a question that you not taken to the chin perfectly. Like, you'll always answer it. You'll take the time to really think through it with me, discuss it with me.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah.
Mikayla Kendall: So that’s been very helpful.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Well, I'm glad that that worked out. That's actually the strategy I use with my incoming undergrads. You know, post you joining the lab, that's the same learning strategy I've been using with them. And, you know, they expressed to me that that works well for them too. But I think it was a great experience for me as the mentor to work with someone who's so similar to me, to really learn. You know, I had always understood how I was and what I needed as a mentee, but I never thought about what my mentorship style would be. So it was a match made in heaven, let's just say.
Mikayla Kendall: It really was.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah.
Mikayla Kendall: And a large part of it is I went into the lab with like this misconception about research that it's just this hard, daunting thing and you just need to know everything and you can't mess up anything or it's really scary. And just watching you navigate, like your PhD and seeing how you're like, “Oh, everybody makes mistakes in lab. You just learn from them. You grow. You can still have a life while you're doing research.” Like, that was really huge for me because everybody that I was seeing go the PhD route, I didn't really feel like I was represented in what I was seeing. So, you kind of opened my eyes to, this is something that's actually attainable for me.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Well, I'm glad that that worked out like that. When I was in undergrad, I had previous... I had a graduate student mentor, you know, same situation as we have. And then after about a year in the lab, also during COVID so there were complications there. Yes, I was an undergrad during COVID doing research… that was really interesting. I had to do a lot of self-mentorship because of the constraints of COVID and only having, you know, one or two people in the lab at a time wearing masks. My previous graduate student mentor made a decision to change labs and I was not interested in following her to a different lab. I really enjoyed the research that I was doing in the moment and so the PI of that lab actually met with me and offered me to be able to be an independent undergrad in the lab. So I didn't really have a blueprint for how a mentor and mentee would interact. Because PIs are really busy, so I felt, pretty confident, my own lab skills and organization skills. But it was good experience eventually, you know, down the line to mentor you, because it was just so easy. You made it so easy. But, yes, doing a PhD is daunting and challenging, and you might feel like you can't make a mistake, but as you just shared and as I've experienced, mistakes are the only way to get to the results. If you don't make a mistake, you don't learn, you can make a mistake that leads to you finding something out that opens a whole new pool of research questions. That has definitely happened to me before in the lab. I think you've been along multiple journeys of me realizing that we have to start over. But every time that we started over, the analysis got more and more accurate, more and more reliable, and I think it was worth it. And you were really alongside me, especially when we were collecting data for grant applications. I remember those times where I was like, hey, do you have any time to work on the Samaris analysis? And you just jumped right in, came into the work, even though…came into the office, even though you were commuting, from the suburbs. So that was just… It was just amazing, to see what you could contribute to the lab. And, did it with so much grace, and you have so much going on outside of the lab, with your involvement in all your student organizations. So I was just so impressed with your organization that I was like, does she even really need a mentor? Like, it seems like you've got this down.
Mikayla Kendall: I definitely still need a mentor. I don't know what I would do without you. I can't even imagine the fact that you, self-mentored yourself through COVID. Like, that's insane.
00:10:00
Hannah Lichtenstein: It was weird. Yeah, it was kind of weird.
Mikayla Kendall: I would imagine so. But, doing, having to constantly start over in lab and still wanting to make lab a priority really cemented the fact that, okay, I think I'm crazy enough to want to pursue research because it takes a level of insanity to be like, we just did this three times, but look at the results. Like, it's so great. That's the only thing that matters.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah. And I think a big part of that is being organized, and being on top of it. And that is something that you and I are both really good at, which is important, and something that I try to do in my mentorship with you, but also other people that I mentor formally and informally, is not only get to know you and your organization in the lab, but also what are your goals after doing this research. It's not always that somebody joins a lab and they want to do a PhD and they want to be in academia. There's no one traditional path. You know, I've had some untraditional paths to research myself. So I think one thing that I really enjoyed about getting to know you and seeing you grow over the years is seeing you find your passion and, your career and your purpose. I was thinking maybe we could talk about that and that, you know, mentoring up and kind of what mentoring up means during this conversation.
Mikayla Kendall: For me, it was really important, and I honestly didn't even realize that I needed this to be able to come to you about any questions or any struggles I was having in determining my path. But it really meant a lot to have a lot of our relationship building on the forefront of, doing the work. Like, before I really got integrated into doing a lot of stuff. It was just you asking me, oh, well, how have you been? Like, how is life? Every time we see each other, just catching up. But if you would speak a little bit more to, what was the methods of how you built a relationship with your mentees?
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah, I always encourage my mentees to let me know what they need. I am a big proponent of, you know… Lab is important for me. Lab comes first because that's what I'm here to do. For my undergrads, lab is not always first. And that's okay, because when I was an undergrad, I was also, you know, taking 18 credit hours every semester and, doing all these clubs and getting involved with service and also doing research. But not all of those things can take, you know, the number one priority at once. So always checking in, with you about how things are going outside of the lab, especially because you were commuting a pretty far distance every day to get to the lab. I really wanted to make sure that I wasn't burning you out. And we had multiple conversations, you know, throughout different periods where we would meet. And I could see it in your face that you were a little burned out. And so I would ask you, because at that point, we had had that relationship where we didn't just know each other on this, professional lab academic level. You know, we had talked about our lives and kind of things that are going on with you, like your commuting situation, and just making sure that you weren't pushing yourself too far in any direction. Because you can't excel in any aspect of your life if you're not doing well mentally, and you're being stretched in a million different directions. So I just think it's important that as we cultivate these lab skills and as we focus on this research, that I do give you the space to prioritize other things. Because I know you, that you will get things done when you say you're going to get them done. But we can always shift those goals around. So just really making it clear to my mentees that, you have to tell me what you need. Because even though sometimes I can tell what you need, not always, especially if I'm not seeing you every day. If you need a break from the lab, it's totally fine. If you need to focus on lab for a couple weeks and then you have a bunch of tests, please do that. Because you can't come to lab if you're failing your classes, that's for sure. So, not that you were really ever in that boat, but just. You know what I mean? In general, it's just important to have that open communication and, be close with each other in that way.
Mikayla Kendall: And one of the, biggest struggles for me, honestly, is typically asking for help. I've gotten a lot better at it. I feel like just. Just in my mentoring relationship with you, I've gotten a lot better at asking for help.
00:15:00
Mikayla Kendall: But if I hadn't had been comfortable with you and you hadn't always been checking in with me and letting me know it's okay to have other priorities, I would not have felt comfortable asking you, I need help. Because there was a point in my undergrad experience, like you said, where I was burnt out and I had to have a conversation with you. It was like, I don't know what to do. How can you burn out in the middle of a semester and make it through? And you were so helpful. We took the time just to not even talk about anything about lab, but just about, like, my personal life outside of school and research. And that really meant a lot to me and kind of shifted how I do things now. I think you had said to me, you can't give 100% to everything. And from there, I've kind of, divided up my priorities into a pie chart, even, which goes back to that organization.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Well, I remember that conversation. I remember you saying, something along the lines of, “Well, I'm trying to give 110% to all these different things.” And I said, “That's too much. That's 100 is 100 for a reason. So if you're giving that extra 10% in every aspect of your life, you're gonna get… It's just not gonna be good for you.” Like, we're neuroscientists. We understand the importance of mental health. And if you're not taking care of your mental, you can't take care of anything else. So, I'm glad that you're feeling like you're getting better at that. I'm glad that I've made it comfortable for you and I think that's something that we really emphasize in the lab in general, which I'm very grateful for. The environment of our lab, just being so open to telling your mentor, hey, this is how I'm feeling right now. And this is what I need and having that open communication airway is so crucial to, you know, building this relationship of mentorship in the lab and also outside the lab.
Mikayla Kendall: I guess that's like a benefit of being in a neuroscience lab, is everybody understands mental health to a certain level.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Right? Yeah. I was thinking maybe we could shift gears and kind of talk about your career journey and kind of what you're thinking now about second steps. Because there was a point where I was trying to convince you to get a PhD, I think, just a PhD or maybe a Master's. I'm not sure. But we took a couple turns, and I was thinking we could talk about that.
Mikayla Kendall: There were a lot of turns. So, like I said, I came in very headstrong of I'm going to pursue medicine, and that is the only way to improve health equity for the communities that I wanted to do it for. But it was actually my – do you remember my first poster presentation that summer? And, how nervous I felt for presenting to people? But then once I was doing… So exciting to be able to get other people excited about what we had just poured our hearts and souls into that summer. And that was, the first time I was like, I think I want to do the PhD part, too. But still, even then, I didn't know where to start. Like, all of what I knew was just how to get to med school. I knew nothing about, how to pursue a PhD. Nobody in my family has ever done a PhD. I don't have anybody who's interested in science. Even like when I told my mom, maybe I want to be a scientist, she was just like, what? What does that even mean? Yeah, what would you do? So it was talking to you and I would ask you… I remember sitting at the computer on Samaris just being like, so what does the MD PhD thing look like? And you were like, well, you can get it separately or you can do a dual degree program. But ah, yeah, you've been here for like a lot of me changing my mind. But I think what really solidified it for me was actually this summer and I was applying to summer research programs because again, I just knew I had that interest in research now. And when I was writing my personal statement, you had looked at it and you were like, it sounds like you would be interested in health policy. And that like clicked something to me. I didn't even register. I never even thought of that as being a thing. And so I like how you helped me learn to ask for what I need.
00:20:00
Mikayla Kendall: When I got into Vanderbilt summer research program, I was just like, hey, I know I usually do neuroscience research, but do you think I could try health policy research this summer? And so I did it. And I got to talk to a lot of different physician scientists, people who are doing the MD PhD track. And now I've got my mind set on an MD PhD.
Hannah Lichtenstein: It's awesome, right? You are going to be the best physician scientist the world has ever seen. I'm so excited about it.
Mikayla Kendall: I mean, honestly, if I were to ever get an award, I would have to thank you because you were the first person who pointed out to me, me, like I didn't even realize when I was writing that personal statement how much I was talking about policy.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah. And that's something I learned from one of my informal mentors, a graduate student that was a couple years older than me. I came to Georgia State University from Ohio State University where I did my undergrad, where I was involved in a service fraternity, co-ed service fraternity. And so when it came to GSU, I was really interested in continuing to do that service work. And there was a journal club here called Service Neuroscience and Policy, or SNIP as we like to call it. And that's when I first really considered the idea of science informing policy. So that was also something new for me. This is probably like a year and a half before I met you though. But through my work in that journal club, it kind of opened my eyes to this whole other world of you can get a PhD or you can get a doctor, you could get both. But you could also then become a Congress member with that degree and have this whole background in science and the scientific method and critical thinking that you can funnel into public policy. And then you have this, you know, these credentials of your higher education, your doctorate, in whatever form that may be, where you can actually do that work to make those changes. So I think it's just you never know about these opportunities until somebody tells you or until you stumble upon them. And I think it's a really cool thing that, you know, you're going to set out to do that. I'm just so excited to see where you go with it. And especially in, you know, the state of today, working on public health policy is more important than ever, I feel like, especially from an actual scientific background and not just somebody who says they're from a scientific background because they feel it in their soul or whatever, like actually having a degree to inform that decision making.
Mikayla Kendall: You know what, from the outside looking in, you would think that a PhD is just like being in a lab and doing science. But throughout my experience, like working with you and doing different research experiences, I've really learned that a PhD could be anything that you make it to be. And that's been like, that's opened up a lot of doors for me as far as considering it as a career as well.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah, something I knew when I started my PhD is that I wanted to explore careers outside of academia. It was something that I felt really strongly about and that I wanted to fill some sort of niche in between scientific research and public education, outside of the classroom to those that don't have access to it. So I found that, you know, doing a PhD while I'm contributing to research in a field that I absolutely love, I've always, always been in love with the idea of microglia since I first learned about them in my neuroscience courses in undergrad. But beyond that, harnessing these skills in project management and critical thinking, managing, really managing other people. These skills are so transferable to other careers, like careers in policy, but also, you know, any career that you could make it, you could bring this to industry, you could bring this to science communication, science outreach. So it's funny because it's like, you know what you want to do with your life. And I actually don't know if I do yet outside of my PhD. But I sure have my hand in literally everything, from, science art to science policy, and, planning these conferences. I have a position at Georgia State, where I plan conferences for our Brains of Behavior annual retreat. So just kind of pick... I feel like an octopus. I'm, picking up all these skills in all these different areas, and then when I graduate, I'll make a decision based on what my options are. I feel like I've had to do a lot of my own work to find different paths for myself. And then from doing that, all I want to do is share it with everyone else, because I don't want other people to have to search for these things.
00:25:00
Hannah Lichtenstein: I just want them to have kind of, like a list of ideas and options, because I didn't have that when I was starting out. I just want everyone to know that there are... There's a way that you can fit your specific interest into any job that you want in the future. There's a job for you that will fit. and I think that starts with, the mentoring relationship. Because if nobody's, instilling that kind of viewpoint in you about how you can do anything that you want to do, then it's really hard to build it for yourself. Not everybody can do that.
Mikayla Kendall: Yeah, that was one of the things I really admired about you was just that, you being an octopus and, you being able to... It's not just you, in lab all the time, right? Like, you're also involved. And that's something I really value. So I really recommend for any undergraduate student, if you're feeling a hesitancy in pursuing a PhD path, I would find a mentor that you can talk to or anybody you could talk to just about, all the options that they can do. And another thing that I've learned as a part of your PhD program, you can start something if it's not already there. Like, if there's something that you're interested in, you can bring that to life.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah. I think that's something that my parents, instilled in me from a young age. No one in my family has done, a higher education track in terms of past a bachelor's degree. But something my parents always told me was that you can do whatever you want to do. You can accomplish what you want to accomplish. And just because somebody hasn't done it before doesn't mean you can't be the first person to do it. So, you know, it just… You're also really involved on campus, and you've, been involved in Association of Scientists of Color. Like, I think you've been involved with that since, very much the beginning and you just got to jump in. Something else is, if you don't ask, you're not going to get it. So you may as well ask, because the worst they can say is no.
Mikayla Kendall: Honestly, that is really… If I had to, take a message other than, don't put too much on your plate. It's really, ask for what you need is what I've learned from you. Because I came in hesitant to ask for help, but by the end of this experience, I feel like I ask you questions all the time, and I love.
Hannah Lichtenstein: I love answering.
Mikayla Kendall: Right. I'm even more comfortable even, like, sending you personal statements now. I don't know if you know this, but I was really hesitant to, show you my personal statements when I was applying for research programs.
Hannah Lichtenstein: No, I didn't. You didn't give that impression at all.
Mikayla Kendall: Yeah, it was you reaching out to me, saying, if you want me to read over it, like. Like, initially, I always need that it's okay to ask, for this. And then from there, I'm good.
Hannah Lichtenstein: I love editing, so I love reading things that other people wrote, and then just. It's always easier for me to edit other people's stuff than to edit my own stuff. So I always try and edit other people's work so that when eventually I have to edit my own work, it's a little bit easier. But I think it's always helpful to have a second pair of eyes on something because the way that you write it, you know, it seems so clear to you because you're the one writing it, but until somebody else reads it, there might be just a different way that they're thinking about it that will be better for, a general audience. So, yeah, that's what a mentor is for. To help!
Mikayla Kendall: Yeah. Honestly, you help me, how do I help you?
Hannah Lichtenstein: Doing all this analysis, going to lab and being ready… Mikayla, you've contributed so much data to my PhD. Like, I would not have been able to do this without you, even if we had to redo it multiple times, but every time I got better.
Mikayla Kendall: But honestly, I came to like you so much as a person. I was like, I gotta get this done for Hannah. She needs this for her PhD.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Well, I think that's important in a mentor. If like all you're doing is being really mean to your mentees, then why would they care about working with you? So that's why it's important to build that relationship outside of working, you know, lab work, content. Like, I love your dog just as much as you love your dog. Probably not more. You probably love your dog the most. But I love getting updates about your dog and your life and how, things are going. So I think that's just important. And maybe I think, I think there's like this idea in professional spaces that when you're at work, you're at work and that's how you know this person. And I don't think that's necessarily always the case, especially in a setting like research and academia where you're not working a nine to five,
00:30:00
Hannah Lichtenstein: you're working a nine all the way around to five the next day it feels like sometimes. So untraditional relationships are, I think, are important, to know people outside of work.
Mikayla Kendall: You know, the most eye-opening piece about research that you've told to me is you know, you can come in on the weekends. Like that kind of, yeah, blew my mind.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Please don't, don't come in on the weekends if you don't have to. But yeah, there were times in undergrad where I had a lot going on during the week and I really, at the end of my day at 4pm, I was not interested in going to the lab and staying all night. So I kind of just decided I'd rather have my afternoons and evenings free of work and just come in on the weekend when there's no one here. You know, I've never made you come in on the weekend, but I did lay that out as a possibility. Like, I think it's important to put trust in your mentees where it's like, you can handle, you know, what you have to do and you know what those deadlines are. And I want you to handle your workload however you want because we're all adults. Like nobody's, nobody's a child in a class. So kind of just trusting you in that way, trusting other people that I mentor in that way to just, you know, get your work done and I don't need to babysit you doing those tasks, that way you can organize your life the way you want it to be. That fits the most for your schedule.
Mikayla Kendall: So I also appreciate how flexible you've been. Like, because my schedule as an undergrad student changes every semester, so you being flexible in that change happening pretty consistently, was really beneficial for me. Like having our sit down meetings before the semester starts. Like, okay, when are you available? What's your calendar looking like? What do you want this semester to look like as far as your work in the lab?
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah, I think especially this last. This last year. Oh my god. It's gonna break my heart when you graduate, I'll be sad. It does hurt, so it's okay. But, especially this last year, you know, working on your undergraduate thesis, research thesis, that you'll be finishing upon your graduation. I'm glad that we were able to kind of work out this plan where, you know, this fall semester you're really focusing on that coursework, finishing up school and stuff, and doing some preparing for next semester where you're really going to be digging into this thesis project and, you know, finishing these goals. I think that worked out really well for us. And we're going to sort tissue tomorrow. It's going to be super fun.
Mikayla Kendall: Can't wait.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yeah.
Mikayla Kendall: I'm so excited to dig through the freezer for some brains.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Yes, it's always a good time. But I think, I think at the end of the day, the reason that all of this works is because we think alike. We are so similar. And of course, not every mentor mentee relationship needs to be two people that think so much alike. But having the same organization, the same need to have a plan, but also flexibility, it just really helps keep everything running smoothly, you know?
Mikayla Kendall: Yeah, it works out. And with the relationship building as well, to be able to mentor in the lab and outside of the lab.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Mentoring up, which I don't know if we actually ever discussed what that specifically means, but it's a term that Dr. Briggs actually taught me. You know, as much as I'm mentoring you, you're also mentoring me and saying what you need. And it's just a great way to think about the relationship. It's never just, you know, one direction. It's always this bidirectional communication stream. and it works because we're so similar. Yeah, it does. I feel like that's kind of the thesis of this conversation.
Mikayla Kendall: Well, thank you for mentoring me, especially through the ups and downs and trying to figure out what I want to do.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Thanks for mentoring up and mentoring me, and always being there to help out and communicating. It's been a pleasure to have you and I'm going to really enjoy this last year before you move on to bigger and better things. Yeah, I'll talk to you soon. I'll see you tomorrow morning.
Mikayla Kendall: I'll see you tomorrow.
Hannah Lichtenstein: Okay. Bye Mikayla.
Mikayla Kendall: Bye.
