“Think Alike?” Episode 10: Train the Best to Leave

Stefânia Forner: PIs in a lab, they have a really hard job because they train the best to leave.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: The goal of this is to keep growing and if eventually we outgrow the mentor mentee relationship, that's not a bad thing. That's what's supposed to happen.

Narrator: Welcome to Think Alike?, a podcast from Neuronline that delves into the art and science of mentorship within the neuroscience community. Neuronline is the Society for Neuroscience’s home for learning and discussion. Join or renew your SfN membership to be part of the premier neuroscience community that's pushing the field forward. Support your career and advance the field alongside your peers with year-round unlimited access to expert-led webinars, SfN annual meeting perks, and many other benefits. Become a member of the Society for Neuroscience or rejoin today at sfn.org/membership. This episode's guests are mentor Dr. Stefânia Forner and former mentee Elizabeth Andrews.

Stefânia Forner: I'm Stefânia Forner. I'm happy to be here on this podcast with one of my previous mentees. I have a PhD in pharmacology. I've done my postdoctorate at UCI University of California, Irvine in the United States. I'm originally from Brazil and that will come to the conversation as cultural changes as mentors and mentees go as well. And I've met Elizabeth who will introduce herself now. So Ellie, great to see you.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, it's good to see you too Stefânia. Thank you SfN for inviting me and Stefânia for thinking of me to be invited onto this. Hi, my name is Ellie. I am going into my fifth year as a PhD student at the University of California, Irvine. I'm in the lab of Dr. Elizabeth Head and we study sex differences in Alzheimer's disease in people with down syndrome. I came to know my PI actually through someone that I met when I was in the lab with Stefânia because I also did my bachelor's degree at the University of California, Irvine, graduated in neurobiology and I'm originally from San Diego.

Stefânia Forner: Awesome. So Ellie, I'll start a little bit talking how we met. I'll say it from my perspective and then you can share from your perspective because I think for you all that are listening, it's quite a funny story from me as the mentor that became, and probably from Ellie as a mentee. So I just joined this lab of Frank LaFerla's lab at UCI back 10 years ago. I cannot even believe I know Ellie for 10 years now. And we went to a conference. I was brand new postdoc, first year, moved to the US for a postdoc. And here I am in this conference, just having coffee in the middle of this coffee break, and Dr. LaFerla actually comes walking to me with this kid I would say, because Ellie was so young at the time, so saying, “Stefânia, I have here this undergrad, first year undergrad, if I recall, and she wants to work in my lab. Talk to her.” And I was so impressed by her courage as an undergrad, first year, first or second year undergrad, to walk straight up to Dr. LaFerla, who was, and he still is, the dean of the biological science school at UCI and a huge name in the field of Alzheimer's. So just the fact that Elisabeth walked to him in the middle of a conference and said straight up to him, I want to work with you. I almost hired, right there at the spot, her to work in the lab. But then obviously we talked. But just the fact of the courage, and not even I wouldn't say courage. It's like the lack of fear of just walking to the dean. A lot of times people miss opportunities because they don’t want to walk to the people they want to reach or they want to work to. So I always told Ellie this, that I was very impressed by it and it was probably the first reason I hired her for. I don't know, Ellie, if you want to share from your perspective how you, did that.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, I’m trying not to laugh over here. It's really fun hearing it from your perspective. And I've heard it a couple of times now because in my view, I just didn't know any better. The confidence, I honestly still carried that with me and in my head, and this is what I tell my own mentees as well. The worst they could say is no. So I actually found that conference on kind of a whim. I was looking for Alzheimer's disease conferences because I was interested in getting involved in research. And I found that there was quite a few people attending from UCI, which is where I was going to start in

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Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: the fall. So that's how I came to know the conference. And then my confidence, I guess, just kind of took it from there. And, it's really funny to look in hindsight because that really did change kind of the trajectory of my career and helped me kind of find my passion in research as well.

Stefânia Forner: And you touched something that for me, as I was also in my career, growing my career and developing my own relationship with my mentors. And I think I didn't even have to mentor you on this as we build our mentorship relationship. It's like you already have the no, so the no is already certain. So for anyone who wants to either send an email or walk to someone that they admire or they read a paper or you are in a conference and you see this person, speaker that you really want to develop a relationship or a network opportunity, just walk into it. As Ellie said, the no you already have. So I think that's really the takeaway message on this story. I think we had so many funny stories during our relationship as mentor and mentee. Ellie joined the lab. I was a first year postdoc. I was also learning to be a mentor. I had some mentees during my grad school. But it's in a different capacity I feel as you grow as well. But as a postdoc I had other relationships, other career goals, my own career goals. And therefore would be different career goals and different relationships with the mentee. So Ellie joined, she worked with me, we worked together for many years. And I trained her with many techniques that in the lab. We were based on, as Ellie said, Alzheimer's and animal models. And I always as a mentor had this idea that the mentee has to be independent. I always had this relationship. And I built this relationship with Ellie and others throughout my career that I trained them in the techniques but also papers, et cetera. But they should be independent. And I don't know Ellie, if for that for you that was useful. I feel like it was. But from your perspective, how was it scary to be a little bit more like I was not micromanaging you or like a hands-on mentor, but I was showing you and giving you the liberty to do what you thought was good for you.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, definitely. I think that was probably one of the single most important things that I took from our in lab, mentor mentee relationship. And maybe we can talk later too about how much that changed later. But when we were in the lab together a lot, I, that was really also a critical time in my life because I was just starting college, becoming more independent in general in life and to also have that in a lab setting which was totally unfamiliar to me. It was very comforting to know it was okay to fail. And I think you always made that very clear. And it's something that I've also carried to when I'm teaching my own undergrads is that mistakes happen, they will happen regardless of if you're the most attentive person in the world. And it's always okay to be like, I don't understand, or I didn't know that this was going to happen. And to just always, like, be curious and have a very open, relationship and understanding with each other.

Stefânia Forner: Yeah, I'm very glad to hear that, because that's something that for sure. I think all of us who are scientists and have been trained as scientists, we know that most. We're trained on failures. We aim for success. But to achieve that one paper, that one experiment, to build that one graph, it's how many failures before? And it's not even failures. It's more of, like a learning curve, I would say, or things that don't work out, or, there are tears dropped and there are moments of anger and very emotional throughout this process. And I always, I think with, my mentees and with Ellie, I always, as she said, to fail or to get something wrong, it's fine, it's okay. Because that's how you learn. If Ellie knew everything, she wouldn't need, a mentor. She wouldn't need a supervisor at that stage in her career. So she had to do things wrong to learn as well. And one of those stories that I think is

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Stefânia Forner: very valuable and very fun to tell, and everyone that ever met me or Ellie and we are together will tell this story because it's quite funny, and it actually involves SfN. it was SfN 2015 or 16. That was in San Diego. And I went to San Diego. Ah, for SfN. I left, Irvine, and I told Ally, I'm going to this conference. You got to do this Western blots. And when I come back, we'll analyze the Western blots and see if it worked. So here I am. I think it was like, Friday afternoon or something. And I was sitting, somewhere in the conference room in San Diego, and I get this message. So something went off. And I was like, oh, dear, what happened? And she was like, well, I went to the. It was back in the day. Think about this. So we used to have, like, the dark rooms where Western blots was not, like those fancy machines that nowadays you all have. She told me, yeah. So I burned all the films because I turned the light on and the film box was open and the box was brand new. So I was like, sure, it's fine. But that gave me such a hard laugh because I was like, here I am. I left an undergrad, first time in the lab to do a Western blot. And she burns a very expensive box of, films, because she turned the light on without closing the box. So I don't know, Ellie, if you want to say your side before and tell what happened after and you can even say what you did after this.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: I'm cracking up over here because I love that story because in the moment it was like pure panic. But it's a story that I will also, I will continue to tell. And I tell my mentees, especially in the context of it's okay to make mistakes because I made a very big one my first time alone in lab. But yeah, when I realized that the box was open and the light was on, it was just dread set in. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get kicked out of lab. It was like all of the worst case scenario was like playing in my head. But of course that's not reality and that was never anything that Stefânia demonstrated. So I texted her in a panic, like, what do I do? And I think you also sent like LOL or something in the text message. It was a very, it was not a really big deal. It was okay to fail. But afterwards, again, I felt so bad that I was like, oh my gosh, I have to apologize. So I brought in an apology cake to say that I was sorry to the lab about burning this box of film, which again, in the grand scheme of things is not a very expensive lab equipment. But I felt comfortable enough also to be kind of silly like that and to have that confidence to be more self expressive and just say, I know I messed up. Let's like laugh about it, you know.

Stefânia Forner: And I felt so for me as a mentor at the time, I was, I felt, yeah, sure, it's expensive a box, but obviously it's, you didn't burn the lab down or you were not hurt or like, if anything it's like you are safe and that's the most important thing in lab. But I was like one very happy to descend, in the schemes of things that one you felt comfortable telling me. So we built that relationship and I think that's very important between a mentor and a mentee. It's to build an honest relationship. If I was, I always had to Ellie, like, be honest. If you commit a mistake, it's much easier for you to come and tell me and we can figure out together how to solve this mistake or how to go around it or start over. Then you try by yourself to cover off this mistake and things get out of control. So I think that relationship was very important from the beginning, from, like, day one. I've always been very honest as a mentor to everyone. Do a mistake, let me know, we can work it on. And I do this in my professional life right now, as well as I work with nonprofits and I have a team. I always tell them, them the same thing. And I think as you grow in your career, that's, an advice that goes on. And obviously, the cake, the apology cake became a whole thing. We wanted everyone to bring apology cakes for any reason in lab. Then it was a whole, like, it became a whole thing in lab about the apology cake. And I think that sense of, as I mentioned, like, honesty and open relationship,

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Stefânia Forner: of communication, open communication between the mentor and the mentee is really important. And I don't know, Ellie, if that transformed you. Now you are a mentor to your undergrads. if you took that to your own core and how you also have mentor, like you mentor undergrads now as well.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, I think when I started, mentoring undergrads, I think I texted you and was like, I'd like to issue a formal apology. This is much harder. This is much harder than it looks. But it also gave me a lot of perspective. And I, mean also in the scheme of things. Like, undergrad is not that far from me. So I remembered being very overwhelmed and confused starting off in lab and in science. So I didn't have any research experience prior to coming to UCI and prior to working with Stefânia. So, I was very grateful for your patience of me as well as I had. I had a lot to learn, and I still do. But being able to kind of translate that back and give back to some of the undergrads that I'm mentoring now, I feel like I have carried a lot of your mentorship style into how I do things, because I also want my mentees to be very independent, but also to know when to come to me or to ask for help even from, other people in the lab, or to just have a more collaborative mindset and learning how to fail and how to fail well. And it's also. It's honestly translated to not only my relationship with my mentees, but now my current relationship with my PI Liz Head. And we've also taken on a very, like. It's evolved into becoming an independent role and an independent, growing into being an independent scientist.

Stefânia Forner: Almost like a spider web of mentorship. You learn something from me that I've learned from my past mentors, and you, you will pass it on. And you will have different mentors and mentees throughout your career. Like, I had, like, my mentors had. I think one important thing about, like, we've been talking about, like, really good, like, mentor mentee relationship, and because we had a really good one. But there are bad, not. I wouldn't say bad, but they're not as friendly or not as, open relationships, with mentors. I can speak for myself. In the past, I've had mentors that were not really. They were mentors specifically for one specific thing in my career, because we have different mentors throughout our career, and we can come back to this later. But you also learn throughout your career what not to do with, like, mentors that are not helpful as well. I've had that. I'm pretty sure, Ellie, in your career, you might have had that too. And for me, everything that I learned not to do is how I have transformed myself as a mentor. It's almost like a mosaic. You kind of grab each piece like a puzzle, and you put it together and you become your own kind of mentor that you would like to be. So I don't know, Ellie, if you've learned from mentors that were not really too helpful, and if you got that experience and turned around and tried to be like a version 2.0.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah. So I think another theme in terms of, being independent was also having a lot of presence with the mentee. Because I think, Stefânia, one thing that was really helpful for me was that I had this feeling that you were always available, even if you weren't always in lab. And I've definitely had experiences with mentors who were not available or not very responsive and didn't really seem enthusiastic about teaching or the learning process in general. And it's okay, because, honestly, also, people maybe just don't really, care for mentorship in that way or have their own things going on. But that was always something that I felt like was really important, was to be present for mentors and for mentees as well. Because, really, it is a conversation. And I think when that conversation starts to break down is when those experiences, are not as helpful, or at least they're helpful in showing you kind of what not to do.

Stefânia Forner: Exactly. And I think, as I said, there are different mentors for different career stages and different, moments and different things that you may need. I was a mentor for you in that early career stage. I probably might not have been a great mentor later on. And I actually,

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Stefânia Forner: as we parted the mentor mentee formal relationship in lab. As my career was moving, I, I actually saw that I could not mentor you properly and I actually redirect you to be mentored by someone else. And I think that actually changed our trajectory and moved you on to where you are right now. So I think it's very important as a mentor to also realize when you cannot be a proper mentor and be honest with yourself and the mentee. And I think that for me, it was really hard at the time of, like, I need to give up my mentorship, formal mentorship, because I feel like Ellie and I, we've had different conversations throughout her own path, that as I moved on in my career about some other things I will probably, I can now mentor on, related to like other careers in academia, et cetera. That not necessarily is like in lab. So our relationship evolved, but I was, for me, it was hard to come to senses as well, of I need to formally give up this relationship in lab because it's for the interest of her, the mentee, of Ellie, for her career. And I cannot be selfish and on keeping her and like not being good, for her. And I think that brings the…I like to say it's that PIs in lab, they have a really hard job because they train people to be the best and to be very successful. So they train the best to leave. Success in academia, basically, is when a PI trains someone so well that they leave. They leave for a better position. And usually a better position is somewhere else in maybe in another institution, in another position, they build their own labs. So it is a very tough job to be a mentor, a PI, because you train people for their best version and then you see them fly away, which is very satisfying. But it's also very, almost hurtful. I would say it's the, proud and sad moment. And I think, Ellie, I don't know for you how it was when I had that conversation of I cannot mentor you anymore and, and I have this plan and how do you think about it?

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, another thing that came through, when, as you were explaining all of telling your story too, I think mentorship brings a lot of self awareness and it's really important to maintain that because again, I've translated that to my own mentorship style of realizing when I can and can't mentor someone when I have the capacity to do so. But it was honestly a very. That was a, I think a difficult transition. And it gave me again, a lot of confidence in my own abilities and trust in you as a mentor, that you were saying that you couldn't continue in the same role as we'd had. And it was towards the end of my college experience, so I was kind of unsure what the future was going to hold at that point. But I also knew going from that experience that I had the skills necessary to be okay in another setting and. Or in another research lab setting, which I definitely felt it was a. I would say it was a, difficult but not unprepared for transition to a new and in a slightly different field of research as well. And I brought a lot of the skills from that transition to into now, my PhD experience, and they've really served me well as I'm kind of nearing the end of it and are reflecting on all that's happened.

Stefânia Forner: And you brought up something that I really liked. And I feel like this is a question that everyone asks. How do you find a mentor? Can you walk to someone and be like, do you want to be my mentor? Sometimes you can do that and straightforward and meet someone and have a good, like one on one on a conference or go out for a coffee somewhere and you can literally ask them, do you mind mentoring me on this topic that I'm looking to expand, but I think finding a mentor, for you to find a mentor, it's very… A thoughtful process. Like Ellie and I, I would say it was almost by accident. Like, you came to work for Dr. LaFerla's lab. I was the postdoc. And that just was a match right there. Like a forced match in some capacity. 

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Stefânia Forner: But as we go back over and over, as we were talking different mentors, how do you find one? I think it has to be really thoughtful. It has to combine, like, you need to be intentional about it. You have to build a relationship with the person, and be, I think, really open to learning. And when I say open and open to learn, it's also open for harsh feedback. Being a mentor it's also being able to give harsh feedback in a very. You can be harsh, like, as a person that you are. But I'm always, I'm a believer that if you can be anything in life, be kind. So I think you can provide harsh feedback in a kind way. But it is very important to provide feedback, constant feedback. And that is why, when you're looking for a mentor, don't look for someone that's just going to sugarcoat everything that you do. That's not mentorship. That's just some that's, that's a friend. That's someone that you go out on a Friday night on a happy hour, and you tell them all your accomplishments or it's your mom or your dad or your favorite grandma. Those are the ones that will sugarcoat and will be really happy about everything and very positive. A mentor will also do that. But a mentor will be the one person that will tell you true feedback. And these are the people that you are looking for when you're looking for a mentor. People that are giving you true feedback for everything that you provide them. They will tell you, this is a great job, but, but they will also tell you, yeah, this is good, but you can do better. I know you can do better. Or go find this information, X, Y and Z, and come back with better things to present. So I think for anyone listening, really just go. If, you're looking for a mentor, think about that. Think about these things that I've just mentioned. I don't know, Ellie, I was able to provide you feedback throughout your career, but how do you see this relationship about getting real feedback, getting harsh feedback as well? How do you go about as a mentee and how do you go about now as you are also a mentor?

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, that's a really, really great point. And it got me thinking a lot about how I approach mentorship situations as well. And kind of going back to how it's really important to establish that safe and open relationship. Because every time I received like, criticism or feedback, it never felt like personal, if that makes sense. It was always about, it was very rooted in your belief in me and your belief in my capacity to be able to perform well. And I really try to take that to my mentees as well. And I feel I have succeeded because some of my mentees, it's again, such a critical age where they're learning how to communicate and how to keep a schedule. But that comes with a lot of sort of trial and error, like, okay, you didn't communicate with me on this thing, so we're going to do this now. And, we have to do this because of this. But also encouraging that self reflection. I tell them a lot. I'm like, how do you feel like you did? Or how do you feel like this went? And if they say well, or if they say not well, we can start to have that conversation. And I think you did the same thing when I was in lab as well. You would ask me, how do I feel like I did. And that really encouraged me to go and think this is more than just a task that I have to do. It's an experiment. It's part of a bigger picture. How do I start to develop that story? And also where do I think that I could do better? And again, I think that really comes from having a very open relationship with your mentor, because of that safety and again, feeling it's okay to fail. But also, criticism is not the end of the world. It is not a reflection on you as a person. It is truly a belief that you can achieve.

Stefânia Forner: I like that. It's not a reflection of who you are. Definitely. I really like that. I, think being a mentor, it's one of the most hard jobs and the most rewarding one. Like just sitting here like listening to you. I'm learning from you now. I think it's mentorship, is a journey that's two way journey. Like I will learn, I will try to mentor my mentees and

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Stefânia Forner: I will learn from my mentees. So I think it's, a two way street. If it's only one way, it's not going to work. 

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Definitely. And it has to feel like a conversation, I think, at all times because I always tell my mentees too. I'm like, I'm learning as much from you guys as you are from me. So I'm learning how you think, how you approach problems and seeing if that works with my own way of thinking and if it doesn't, if I need to change, if we can have a conversation about it. But being very adaptable and flexible I think has served both of us very well too.

Stefânia Forner: Yeah, I think being adaptable, for sure, and flexible and also understanding the phase. So like, for me, I had to be very understanding that you were a first year undergrad. Like, as you mentioned right in the beginning of the podcast, you were saying, oh, so many things were happening in your life. You were moving, out of your family house to go to college. So there's so many moving parts in that phase. So I think as a mentor, if you're listening and you are in that position of mentor, you really need to take into consideration what's happening in the mentee life. And also, if the mentee, something's happening or they change behavior or they even start, they stop or they cancel meetings or, they start pushing meetings like there were every week to every other week or et cetera. It's important for a mentor to check in and check in constantly. It doesn't mean micromanagement. I think, it's very important to differentiate checking in to micromanaging. Also, as I mentioned previously, it's very different. It's completely different being a manager and being a mentor. The same as being a mentor, being a manager and a leader. And that's a podcast by itself. But I think it's important that. I think it's, as you mentioned, Ellie, having this open communication. I think this is something we talked through the whole episode. Like, just have an open communication. I don't know if you have anything else that you would like to add.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Yeah, and also, definitely the open communication, as we keep reiterating. But also too I think it was really important to talk about the life stages that your mentor or mentee is at and to know that they're going to grow and your goal is to kind of launch them. I think you said this in the beginning, too. A lot of the goal of science is kind of contrary to other fields because you're really preparing somebody to leave. And I really felt that you were preparing me to move on to something bigger and with my own capabilities and to be more independent. And that's really how I've approached a lot of my mentor and mentee relationships. Is the goal of this is to keep growing. And if eventually we outgrow the mentor mentee relationship, that's not a bad thing. That's what's supposed to happen. And whatever comes afterwards, whether it evolves into friendship or something, then, that's. That was the goal you have achieved the mentor mentee goal. But also that it never really ends either. And you brought up a really important point about it being different from managing, because with managing, the goal is always productivity, but I think with mentorship, it's more personal growth and your capabilities that are the goal.

Stefânia Forner: Exactly. And I feel like this episode, if anything, it showed me that I was part of your mentorship. And I'm very proud of it. I'm very proud of you as a mentee and what you've been doing, moving on. And I think I can see that I've planted a little seed that it's growing and it's moving on. So for me, listening to you makes me very proud. So do you think than mentors and mentees should think alike?

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: I was getting emotional there. I started crying because you're a very critical part of my journey. Do I think mentors and mentees should think alike? I feel like this is yes and no. I think it's important to think alike on certain things be on the same page. But no, because the point is always to be challenging each other.

Stefânia Forner: I also think that. I think, should mentors and mentees think alike? Not necessarily. I would say I think it's having shared core values, but it is about being complementary, not conforming. So it's about critical thinking, being creative together,

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Stefânia Forner: moving on and just you can have shared core values, but not otherwise. What's the point, right? So, Ellie, thank you. This was great. I hope to keep watching you from backstage and, seeing all the great things and hopefully I'll meet one of your mentees in the future and ask who you are as a mentor.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Thank you. It's always good to see you and chat with you, Stefânia. Yes, we call them your science grandchildren.

Stefânia Forner: Yes, my grandchildren.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: The next generation.

Stefânia Forner: The next generation, definitely. Well, thank you.

Elizabeth (Ellie) Andrews: Thank you, SfN.

Narrator: We hope this conversation inspired you as you navigate your own mentorship journey. This podcast is brought to you by Neuronline, SfN's home for learning and discussion, where you can find a variety of additional professional development resources and opportunities to connect with other neuroscientists scientists. Check out the link in the show notes to learn more. Think Alike? is produced by Amanda Kimball, Adam Katz, Eiman Abdelgadir, Taylor Johnson, Emily O’Connor, Dominique Giles, and Marie Dussauze. Thanks for listening.

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