“Think Alike?” Episode 7: Pedagogy and Partnership

Episode 7: Pedagogy and Partnership

Kira Bailey: I'm Kira Bailey and I am an associate professor of psychology and neuroscience at Ohio Wesleyan University, and I'm currently chair of the psychology department and director of the neuroscience program.

Chandler Carr: I'm Chandler Carr. I'm currently a master's student, at the University of Alberta. And I started, working with Dr. Bailey during my undergrad, very early on. I, ah, think we met my freshman year. And I had started working together my sophomore year to, do a bunch of different things.

Kira Bailey: Yeah. So our first meeting was online in a zoom, because Chandler was assigned as my academic advisee, one of the new incoming freshmen that year. And we were remote. It was fall of 2020. Right. so we. We were, I guess we was doing like a hybrid thing at that time. So I was pretty. Pretty much all remote and we had to sort of get to know each other at least in that kind of advising relationship through zoom, which I personally didn't have a whole lot of trouble with because I was really used to gaming and meeting people through discord. But I don't know how. How did you find it, Chandler?

Chandler Carr: I think at first I didn't have that many issues, and I think that early on in our relationship, since it mostly was just, talking about what classes I was going to take next, I didn't have any, really, any issue with that. I was originally a psychology and zoology, student. And I reached out to you completely not knowing that you were the, chair of the neuroscience program, and was like, hey, do you think it would be good if I were to, like, join the neuroscience program? And you're like, yes, of course. Always. I'm like, now I look back at it. M. Like, you were, like, recruiting me and I didn't even think about that.

Kira Bailey: Yeah, yeah, essentially I was like, that's. That is always what I love to hear when a student's like, oh, what about neuroscience? And I'm like, what about neuroscience? yeah, let's talk about that. But no, it actually, Yeah, what I remember a lot from the beginning of that time was talking about what you wanted to do kind of long term. And I know that, you know, we kind of repeatedly talked about how you were that into humans. You know, in terms of research, you were much more interested in the animal side of it. And so I thought you. Yeah, like, neuroscience ended up making a lot of sense for you over psychology. Not that you didn't have some psych classes there too, but. But I think that it hit more of the areas that were interesting to you. So, yeah, I guess we can talk about the first time we met in person, not in zoom. I think was the following Fall. 2021. So you were taking my affective neuroscience course that year. I think that's right. and that was the first time that we really started working in a different way together than just the kind of academic advising side of it. And I think I did going into. I do talk about non human animal research a little bit in that class, but I. I actually remember. I don't know that I've ever told you this, but I remember thinking like, I wonder if Chandler's gonna hate this class because it's all about human emotion. And that's, I mean, you were interested sort of in emotion, but like, you know, not exactly the human side of it. So I was like, well, this will be, this will be interesting.

00:05:00

Kira Bailey: but I think that it was actually a really good early neuro class for you to take because it really picked off some. Basically all of the projects that we worked on after that were very much coming out of that class. I'll tell my perspective and then you can talk about it from yours. So, for the final project of that class, you had approached me about looking at neuro aesthetics, which I think was a thing that I had vaguely heard about before but didn't really know much about. We made this amazing piece of artwork for that final project. I wish I had it here, but it's, it's at home. It's getting framed so that I can put it in my new lab space. But it's it's basically made out of leaves and shows the parts of the brain that are involved in neuro aesthetics. So it's like a big leaf brain picture. I don't know, Chandler, you can probably describe it better, but is this like huge, amazing piece of artwork for the final project? and then you talked about, you know, did the presentation with the research and stuff. And I just like, I had never. I have tried repeatedly to get students to do something creative as their final project. So, you know, it doesn't have to be just a, regular old presentation. It could be anything. And just really try to push people to do something like that. Nobody had ever done it. Right. Like, no student ever takes me up on it. They always just do. They're like, I'm just going to do my presentation. That's fine. You came in with this and I think it blew the whole class away. Like I genuinely did. There were in the course evaluations There were people who were like, one of the students made this crazy, you know, art project. It was amazing. and then you let me keep it.

Chandler Carr: So when I first approached you about doing a neuro aesthetics project, like an actual trying to do some kind of research in this field, I know, like one of your apprehension was about, well, Chandra, are you sure you want to do research with me? Because I don't study animals, I study humans. And is that something that you're okay with and you're comfortable with? And I think that that that class very much opened my eyes to, in a sense, viewing humans as animals for research and that you can get better results that way if you maybe think about them a little bit more as, in that more abstract way, or maybe the more simple way would be a better way to put it. And so wanting to think about those more unconscious things, those more reactions to things rather than asking them how they're feeling or something along those lines, I connected a lot with and excited me a lot. yeah, the class itself didn't bring up aesthetics, I don't think. But I had been reading a book at the time and just noticed a lot of connections myself, and I thought maybe you would find it interesting and cool. And I think that's. You did. And it kicked off a lot of things.

Kira Bailey: Yeah, nothing at all like my typical research, which is looking at video games. so I guess like, that is kind of an interesting aspect of our mentorship relationship is that you were doing something that was kind of totally outside of what I normally do. there are some shared elements, you know, because we ended up going towards a more cognitive route in terms of like, okay, we're going to look at how affect and cognition interact in these esthetic versus non esthetic environments. But, but other than the cognitive element, it was really outside of my wheelhouse. And so, you know, when I think about like, what do, what do mentors need to know about working with students? You know, I think a lot about my own graduate school experience. I had already decided I wanted to study video games and there were only a few people doing that. So I ended up in a lab with a person who didn't study video games at. And I think even now doesn't really have all that much interest in it, even after working with me, mentoring me through the grad program. But like, what was so great and meaningful for me was that this person was like, hey, you know, I'm going to teach you how to do this particular research methodology if you want to Apply it to look at video games. Great. Like, let's see what you find. And so I think that that really influenced when you approached me about neuro aesthetics, the way that I thought

00:10:00

Kira Bailey: about whether or not to say yes to that. Right. Because we're, you know, at a undergraduate institution, liberal arts students come at you all the time with different ideas about things and you really have to. You only have a finite amount of time. So you really have to think about like, okay, you know, is this going to be something? Is this going to be a relationship that works well and is it going to be a research path that I can do with this student? The amount of time that we have. And I just thought to myself, like, okay, but if somebody had said no to me in grad school, like, that would have been so sad. Like, I wouldn't be who I am today. And you were so excited and so passionate about this project and I really believe that you were willing to put the time into it. So even though it wasn't my area of expertise on the aesthetic side, I knew that you would actually do the work to bring in that piece of it. So, like, I could mentor you through how to use electroencephalography and how to do human subject research without having to feel like I also had to be an expert on that specific topic. I guess maybe that's a good segue to what kind of what our mentorship relationship actually looks. Flight. So, yeah, I'll just say I'm a fairly, I think I'm a fairly hands off mentor. That's how I kind of think of myself. I like to give, I like to give students space to problem solve on their own and like make some of their own decisions about stuff, obviously with guidance. But I, but you know, I admittedly, and I was trying to think of a nice way to say this about myself, but I'm just going to say I am also kind of a control freak about certain things because, I, you know, I want, I want the, the lab procedures and protocols and everything to like, work really well. I want everything to be done a certain way. So there is a bit of, you know, anytime I take on a new student, sort of acclimating that student to how I think about and process what we do in the lab so that they at least know what to expect from me. but I guess this is something that we haven't really talked a whole lot about before. So I'm kind of curious, like, do you think I'm a control freak? or hands off. I Don't know. Some combination.

Chandler Carr: Probably some combination. I. You know, I actually think that, the way that you mentor worked a lot for me because I think that, Well, I think that the situation, and maybe this is a unique experience of being an undergrad or a bit more unique of being an undergrad is I didn't really know what my expectations for you as a mentor would be like when going into it. I just. All I knew is I wanted to do this research, you were going to help me do this research. And, I liked you as a teacher. You were a passionate, interesting person. And so I was like, yeah, that's good enough information. I just. At the time, I didn't really even consider, what I wanted formally out of that more research, mentor experience. I think it worked out in the end as I. As I learned more about myself, I realized that, I don't want someone looking over my shoulder constantly, but I also want someone that I can ask questions to whenever I need to. And I can ask a lot of questions sometimes. So I think that balance of both, being hands off, like when we did research, the majority of the time you were down in your office. You weren't even with us. You trusted me to run the lab and run my project. You were down in your office. And so, I felt that that was hands off in a manner of, oh, I can just do all of what you taught me to do. but when something arised or I had a question, I could easily go down the hallway and ask you a question. I would never feel. I never felt like I was intruding on you. I just felt that, like, she would want this to go, well, I need to ask a question, or I feel like it's logical to ask a question here. and maybe that control, fleek side, as you put it, is helpful there in that sense that you were always willing to, answer questions whenever I was. Whenever I came to the door. And you were never, never wooed about that, I guess I should say.

Kira Bailey: Yeah. And then sometimes we ended up talking for a while about other things.

Chandler Carr: So, always got distracted.

Kira Bailey: There's just so much to talk about. yeah, I mean, and I think practically speaking, there was maybe, and this was partly by design, partly maybe just by accident, but there was a bit of scaffolding to that. What I ideally always want to do is

00:15:00

Kira Bailey: have students spend a semester kind of immersing themselves in the literature about whatever it is that they're wanting to study. and you did do that with me. Right. Like, we started out with pretty much weekly meetings, really diving into what, what is this topic of neuro aesthetics and what are kind of the boundaries of it and what are the unanswered questions? And I think that's always a really good way to start because then when you get to the stages of planning, there's, you know, shared kind of understanding about what it is that you're actually trying to accomplish. and I felt by the time, I mean, we had been working with each other on planning the study that we were doing and then also planning the class that we co taught together, we had been working on all of that for at least two full semesters before I really, like, left you alone in the lab right before we got to that point. So I think that was helpful too. I know not everybody, not every mentor mentee is going to have the luxury of, you know, I basically got to work with you for three full years as an undergrad. And so that's a lot of time to be able to kind of build that trust. But I think that was a big part of why that worked later on was because we did trust each other. I trusted you to run things and to know when to come to me when you had questions, and you trusted that you could bring me whatever questions you had. And I wasn't, you know, gonna get upset or tell you to go away or be mad that you didn't already know the answer. Right. So. So I think that that is helpful. The other really interesting thing we did together was co teach.

Chandler Carr: I think that working with you had a lot of, like, surprising moments, I would say, in which I, you know, bringing back that. That point you make about trusting each other, I think you put a lot of faith in me and a lot of trust in me to do things. I really appreciate that you did that. And so, like, yeah, when, as I slowly realized what I wanted to do, and I think going throughout my undergrad, I always knew that I liked science. And I figured that probably one of, if not the only way I was going to be able to do the type of science that I work was going to be a professorship, I slowly realized that I might want to do the other side of it, which is teaching, and I would have to if I was going to be a professor. And, I hadn't had any experience with that. I didn't know anything about that and I didn't really know anything about, like, what goes on in grad school regarding that stuff. But, as we learned about the, my topic together as we read papers and I learned more about the Neuro aesthetic stuff, I. I realized that I just wanted to talk about it. And I, you know, I brought it up to you as a. A project that then turned into, you actually trusting me to do it was to make a class essentially, in which we could teach some students about the Neuro aesthetics topic.

Kira Bailey: Yeah. So honestly, for me, that. That piece of art that you made at Affective, Neuro. That is what sort of prompted me to think that the teaching aspect could really work like that. Neuro aesthetics as a topic for the senior seminar could really work. People were so excited about that, you know, like, and I think anyone who teaches and enjoys it is likely to say that passion is a huge part of it. Right. If you're, if you're not excited about what you're doing, then, you know, it's not likely the students are going to be very excited either. And I, you know, I watched that moment in class and thought this was such a fun shared experience that we all had together. And it would have never occurred to me to teach a class about Neuro aesthetics. And I honestly, I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own because I wouldn't have taken the time to learn all of the background on the topic without you being there. And so it just seemed, seemed like a good idea to have you try to teach it with me. And I'll also say, like, obviously as your academic advisor, we talked about your career stuff a lot. And I did have a moment when you were like, I think I want to be a professor. And I thought, oh no, I've messed

00:20:00

Kira Bailey: up. Because being a professor, I mean, right. Like today in higher ed, things are kind of messy and there's like, not as many jobs opportunities as there may be ones where I experienced that myself coming out of grad school in 2012 after, you know, kind of the 2008 crash had, dried up. A lot of jobs and a lot of people weren't retiring. And it's just been hard ever since. And so I always look at people and I'm like, man, you really gotta love this stuff if you're gonna go through grad school and, you know, go find a job where you're split, you know, depending on what time type of school you go to, potentially split between scholarship and teaching. And there's just a lot of things that, you know. But I'd say 90% of my time where I'm at is taken up by kind of service oriented things to the university. So, like, you just really have to love it. So I'm always a little bit wary whenever students are like, yeah, I definitely want to be a professor. Like, okay, well it'll be a good idea for you to know what that actually looks like. So, yeah, I would say that you getting to teach as an undergrad was likely going to be a really important experience, at least for you to know if that you could get a PhD. But do you really want to be a professor? Right. And do you want to be a professor at a small liberal arts college or, one like where do you want to go? And I think that was a unique experience in some ways. because we, you know, most of the time with undergrads, I feel like we are like, yeah, let's get you into research opportunities because that's gonna look good for grad school and that's gonna set you up well to know like, what kind of thing do I want to study for five or six years, however long it takes me to get this PhD. But we kind of don't as much center the teaching aspect of it. But you said you were, you said you were into it, and I was like, all right, let's see how it goes. So, as a junior, you got to teach a bunch of seniors, about neuro aesthetics. And I feel like that again, trust was really critical there, right. Because we had to have a lot of conversations about how students react in a class. Right. Like, and you were still a student yourself, so it's, it's just like a weird thing to have to be like, my peers aren't reading their papers or they're not turning in their homework or whatever. And I, you know, as a co- instructor, I need to be able to grade them and be able to say to them, you need to do your work. Right. Like, is a weird thing, but I think really for me, a really cool thing. Because I, as much as I like to think about myself as being not too much older than you all, I am, increasingly getting more like older than my students. So I can remember things from my experience as an undergraduate, some of which are probably still relevant, but many aren't. And so it was really actually powerful for me to be co teaching with a current undergraduate where, like, that is, your lived experience is like, what are classrooms like right now? What are the challenges that students are facing right now? And so it definitely helped me think a little bit differently about why certain elements of pedagogical design work better than others or when it's time to change, you know, what the student's perspective is.

Chandler Carr: Well, first I want to say that, about the. Oh, no Moment. don't worry. My parents are middle school teachers, and, both me and my brother have moved to, like, you know, either being a teacher or approaching that sort of career. And both of them are like, what did. Where did we go wrong? Like, how did you. What part of us talking about teaching middle schoolers did you not realize makes this, like, why did you choose this?

Kira Bailey: That's funny. I guess it's maybe a universal experience of teachers to be like, don't do that, my child.

Chandler Carr: Yeah. And, yeah, I think that it was, It was definitely a tough experience that, you know, I was. I. I'm glad I was able to navigate with someone else. And, yeah, it definitely made it different and

00:25:00

Chandler Carr: strange for, You know, like, sometimes students in the class could be a little bit lewd about, you know, one of the projects that they had to do an assignment that, they maybe necessarily didn't want to do that. and, I mean, that's. That's difficult. It's really challenging for, you know, a junior to look a senior in. In the face and be like, here's your assignment that you need to. That I will be grading. And, Yeah, I just. I think that it was. It was definitely a learning experience and something I'm glad that got to do with someone else first. because I think in. I'm looking at where I am in my masters, and I'm thinking about where I'm doing, like, TA ships now that, are a little bit more distanced than, they are at, you know, the undergrad level. And, I don't really, like. I don't know where I would really have gotten that experience because I'm not teaching anything right now. I'm mostly doing a grading aspect and. Or answer questions. And I think that I find it interesting that I feel that the day. When the day comes for me to teach another class again, I think that our experience, of co. Instructing a class was more beneficial than any of the TA ships that I've done so far. anything that I do, the teaching stuff that I've done in grad school, doesn't compare to that. And I think that that's really interesting.

Kira Bailey: And you did get a publication out of it.

Chandler Carr: And I did get a paper out of it. Another great surprise of you. just out of, out of the blue, we were in Chicago. We went to Go to the, to a conference. And you, we were just after, at the end of the conference, you know, hanging out, talking about the conference and such, and you were like, oh, you remember that, alum who had visited like a few weeks ago? you know, he actually co taught a class with another teacher who used to be here, and they got a paper out of it and you offered the same to me to write about the experience. And I, I was genuinely really shocked. I had to like, a few minutes later go to you, like, hey, were you serious about that? Like, were you being genuine about wanting to write a paper? And you're like, yes, yeah, I, and I just, I was really shocked that was my first paper and would become my first, first author paper. and I truly was really shocked and excited about that experience. I, I did not see it coming.

Kira Bailey: Again, see, this is just another way that you totally take me outside of my wheelhouse because, like, I don't write about pedagogy, so I, it just wouldn't have occurred to me. But yeah, and I think that process of writing that manuscript and trying to get it published was also a good maybe lesson for both of us. But yeah, doing this paper, I think made me realize how hard it might be sometimes for journal editors or reviewers to take an undergraduate first author seriously. because we weren't, we weren't going into a journal that was specifically designed for, you know, there are certain journals that their whole thing is undergraduates publish here, and we weren't doing that. We were going to a journal where they expect, you know, people with PhDs to publish there. And so it was a little bit of work to like, when they see the student as the first author, to like, convince them that this, this is serious. Like, you know, this paper is about Chandler's experience as a co teacher of an undergraduate class. And while they're still an undergraduate themselves, like, they have done this experience and have, you know, a story to tell from it. So they don't need a PhD to tell that story, and it be worthwhile. So it has actually helped me think a little bit more carefully now about when I have a undergraduate as a first author, how I might approach the letter that we send with the paper to the editor just to be upfront about it is the student's project and they are bringing expertise to it. And their expertise is, you know, it's not based on the PhD like mine is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's less valuable in this particular context.

Chandler Carr: In many ways it's kind of similar, funny enough, to the actual teaching of the class in this, like as an undergrad to seniors.

00:30:00

Chandler Carr: And there was sort of the, not necessarily judging the content of what we were talking about or what I had pulled together, but more sort of a judgment on the like, of me and my being a grade lower than them and whether or not I had the experience or, I don't know, wisdom or something to talk about it. And in many ways it kind of was similar, I felt, in that case where, the original response that we got back for the paper wasn't much of a, you know, the content is incorrect or disagreeing, with. But more of a Just worrying about that, whether or not I had the experience to push it forward to talk about it. And I found that it kind of interesting in that manner, judging not necessarily the content right away, but just the. The individual and whether or not they could have really been the one maybe, to bring forward that content themselves. And I found that kind of interesting.

Kira Bailey: But I was glad to get that paper out there. it now, it does live in the Journal of Undergraduate Neuroscience Education. And I, I actually do really hope that people will. That maybe more undergraduate professors like myself will be kind of inspired to try to find or create those kinds of opportunities for students. Because I think it was not just a good thing. And the paper talks about this a lot. It was not just a good thing for Chandler. It was a good thing for me as well to get to have that, to see the classroom from like a different perspective than what I normally see it. And the paper that we're working on currently, and this is kind of a new, maybe slightly different stage in our mentorship because you. I'm not really your mentor anymore. We're now basically colleagues. and you're strange and you have a, you have a mentor in your master's program and you've got stuff that you're supposed to be doing for that. But we're still trying to get this manuscript on our research project published. And you know, like I said, I'm kind of. I'm slow on the writing. but also just, you know, generally we don't have all the time that we used to have to kind of sit down and just chat whenever about whatever we want to related to that project. So, you know, finding, I think a different kind of timeline or like pacing with how we talk to each other about stuff has been. Yeah, that's also been a transition in the relationship. But I Am going to get to writing soon, though.

Chandler Carr: We are colleagues now, which is, again, strange growing up. but that. Not to talk about another mentor of mine, but, you know, Dr. Likert always, he likes to remind me now, that you never really stop being a mentor. and I feel like that's very similar here. I. You know, we don't talk as much as we did at owu, and it's not the same experience, but I still reach out to you and ask your thoughts and opinions on things. I. You know, I had a bit of a rough time when I started my master's with, just an advisor that I didn't connect with. And I, you know, I reached out to you. I wanted to know your thoughts on the idea, or on the situation. And it helped me make decisions to hear your thoughts and also look back on the experiences that I had with you to, figure out whether or not I was okay with that situation. And, I mean, the answer, I wasn't. And I left that situation, got a new professor who I feel matches a little bit more with that style that I learned that I liked with you. and so, like, I do really. I do really agree that I feel like it never really stops. and I guess I'm like, maybe I'm. I guess I'm strangely telling you, hey, you're still my mentor. but I do think that I still, like. I. Even though we're working together as colleagues more, I look up to you a lot, and I look back on what we did, and I still view it as this mentor relationship that I still want to know what you think, and I still, in a sense, want to make you proud, if that makes sense, and be a good student. yeah, I think the current situation is definitely different and a little bit slower in the process. but I'm glad to still have this connection.

Kira Bailey: Yeah, I guess my. Well, I think that's really sweet that you want me to be proud of you. I am very proud of you. and I continue to feel that way. I think, you know, on my side, what I know is very likely to change and already does in some ways, is that you'll see more of the, like, honesty, you know, behind the scenes. Like, I'm being really slow at writing right now because I'm dealing with these other 5,000 things that are on my plate, some of which probably shouldn't be on my plate, but they are. And that's like, how life at a university goes sometimes, is that things come up and you just. You Think you're going to have a solid window to write in and then it goes away, you know. And I feel like sometimes when you were an undergrad, I think I was always pretty on honest with you about what was going on, but I think sometimes I didn't fully let you know, like, just how crazy things were. And so now I feel like I would be much more honest. But, yeah, no, I think we'll always have that relationship. I think that Dr. Riker makes a good point there. I also think that in some ways, though, in the teaching that we did together is why I feel this way. I think that I learn as much about things from you. and there are certain things that I would still, I, you know, I would ask myself and I might even email or text you from time to time, like, what does Chandler think about this? Because we've had so many shared experiences now, doing research and, and being in a classroom that I feel like you again, that's trust. Like, you know, a bit, more about like, how I think. So you'll understand when I'm asking a question where I'm coming from and why I'm there. And then I can get your perspective as like the younger, cooler person who knows what. At least for now. Right? Like, eventually.

Chandler Carr: I don't know if I describe myself as cool, but one thing I've always thought to myself a little bit is that, I oftentimes when I am talking about the research that I do and such to like, you know, people my age or younger, I get this. There's always a statement back that I hear about, that they're, they're, they're not smart enough. They make a statement like, I'm not smart enough to do that. You must be super intelligent. Like that. My thought process to myself is like, I think I'm smart, but I do tend to be bad sometimes of like, remembering specific facts and stuff. So like, I'm not the most intelligent person ever. And I think the thing that I always. The pearl of wisdom, I guess I have is that I think that hard work means more in academia than intelligence does that. I really just don't think intelligence gets you very far, without putting, you know, putting in the work. And I think that in my case, I don't think that I'm the most intelligent person ever. but I think that I'm a hardworking person and I, that's what's gotten me further.

Kira Bailey: I, I love it. Honestly. That reminds me of, you know, so much of my Own, experiences with being the undergrad or being the grad student and what my mentors were like has really shaped what I'm like. And I think that what you just said reminds me that when I was in grad school, my grad advisor, who still, he's just, he is, I don't know if he's technically a genius, but he's really smart. and he would just rattle off, like, author names and publication dates of, like, everything. You know, he'd be like, so and so in 1972, said this, you know, and it was just like, constant, like, that was how he talked. And I was like, oh, gosh, am I going to be like that one day? Am I going to be able to rattle this off? And it turns out, no, I am not like that, at all. I have trouble. I'm like, I know there's a paper and I can go find it and I can tell you what it said, but I don't have so much of the author names and dates memorized. And so, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's, they're all maybe different kinds of qualities that I think that people can bring to, academia and how they work. And I think that, you know, to one extent or another, a lot of us experience imposter syndrome at some point about something. And so I think just remembering that, yeah, you don't have to be the literal, smartest person in the room or, or the most creative or the most anything, right. Like, if you're there and you want to be there and you want to be contributing, then there's going to be a space for you or a way

00:40:00

Kira Bailey: that you can be making those contributions. So that's my, my, I guess words of wisdom or whatever about imposter syndrome, like, you're gonna feel it, but just fight against it because there's absolutely, you know, a space for everyone.

Chandler Carr: So, and I mean, maybe this leads us into the, whether or not we think alike. But I, I, I guess my other advice to maybe undergrads, maybe specifically searching for an advisor later on, is that you're gonna face that imposter syndrome. So that I think is important is find someone who is proud of you, that thinks that you're doing the hard work, that, that doesn't add to that imposter syndrome, if that makes sense, to find someone who really cares and trusts you and is excited about making you a, making you into a good scientist that, you know, again, you don't have to be the, the most in any situation. But that they. They respect you and can see you as a good, scientist and as a good person.

Kira Bailey: I think that's good advice. And I think hard work is what a lot of us see. Right. Because I can't literally see inside your brain to know how smart you are, but I can see how hard you're working, and I can see the results of that. Yeah. So I guess the big question, should a mentor and mentee think alike? And my answer to that is that I think it does help to have some similarities in how you approach things like organization and decision making, or at least to have, like, sort of a shared language in terms of how you're planning things, because it's super helpful for moving the project along. However, I think in terms of, you know, the knowledge that you're bringing or the lived experience or the. The things that you're passionate about, I think it's actually really helpful to have differences. I know that my relationship with Chandler. I mean, you've made me a more creative researcher because I've thought about things that I wouldn't. You know, topics I wouldn't have touched or things that just. Just I didn't know I would find them interesting. and then I also think, on top of being a more creative researcher now, I'm also a more empathetic teacher because I had to think through that process with someone who was really, like, at the same time, in the perspective of the people I was teaching. And I think that those differences really made us strong collaborators and also probably, I hope, made us better individually.

Chandler Carr: Yeah, I think I view it very similarly. I think that science works better, that we don't really think alike, or I guess specifically that we don't think the same. and I agree with you. I think that, relationship functions smoother and the project gets moved along, as you put it, when we can see each other's point of view. But I think that that has more to do with respect for one another and. And respect for the perspectives and ideas that we have, rather than necessarily, like, thinking exactly the same. and I think that. I think that we found that. That we. We do have a lot of respect for each other and our ideas, even if they're not the same. And I, really cherish that relationship.

Kira Bailey: Same.

Chandler Carr: Well, thank you for, Thank you for inviting me to do this. and it was really nice to talk with you today.

Kira Bailey: I'm so glad you agreed to do this. You were the first person I thought of, and it was really fun getting to catch up. I think this is probably the longest we've gotten to talk about in a while, so thanks for being here with me.

Host: We hope this conversation inspired you as you navigate your own mentorship journey. This podcast is brought to you by Neuronline, SFN's home for learning and Discussion, where you can find a variety of additional professional development resources and opportunities to connect with other neuroscientists. Check out the link in the show Notes to learn more. Think Alike is produced by Amanda Kimball, Adam Katz, Iman Abdelgadir, Taylor Johnson, Emily o', Connor, Dominique Giles, and Marie Dussauze. Thanks for listening.

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