Think Alike? Episode 2: Creating a Safe Space

Episode 2: Creating a Safe Space

Introductions

Speaker A: Welcome to Think Alike?, a podcast from Neuronline that delves into the art and science of mentorship within the neuroscience community. Neuronline is the Society for Neuroscience's home for learning and discussion. Check the link in the show notes to find out more. This episode's guests are mentor Dr. Ramesh Raghupathi and mentees Nishell Savory and Dr. Taylor McCorkle.

Ramesh Raghupathi: All right, I'll get started. I'm Ramesh Raghupathi. I'm a professor of neurobiology at Drexel University College of Medicine. I'm also the deputy director of the neuroscience program. And, let me start off by, asking Taylor, first to introduce herself and then Nishell.

Taylor McCorkle: Hi, I'm Taylor McCorkle. I'm a second year postdoctoral fellow at Temple University.

Nishell Savory: Hi, my name is Nishell Savory. I'm a 4th year PhD candidate at Drexel University College of Medicine.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Taylor, you and I met in 2018. If I remember correctly. We met, at the graduate, open house at Drexel University. so why don't you start us off sharing with us, like, what brought you to that open house and what, was your goal?

Taylor McCorkle: I just wanted to go to that open house because I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with life, since I was in my senior year at Penn at that time, and I wanted to stay in Philadelphia because I like the area a lot. and I was trying to get more information on what grad school even was and what I could do. you know, I didn't know much of anything at the time. and so I think that's kind of what brought me to the open house. I was doing a lot of just googling, trying to figure out, what I could do.

Ramesh Raghupathi: So we exchanged or I gave you my card and I think you, you emailed me and then you came to the lab to, to my office to talk about and to continue that conversation.

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah. and I remember that more so than the open house because, yeah, I emailed you in. My email was just like, hey, I'm trying to figure out what to do with life. Like, can I talk to you? Your research sounds interesting. and then, yeah, you responded thankfully, and we met in your office, and then I decided to apply.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Nishell I think we met when you interviewed for the PhD program at Drexel, correct?

Nishell Savory: Yeah, but I had emailed you, I think, a month or two before submitting my application, and we met via Zoom. I think I joined a lab meeting or so.

Ramesh Raghupathi: All right yes, that. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yes.

Nishell Savory: Yeah.

Ramesh Raghupathi: And that was in 20...

Nishell Savory: 2020?

Ramesh Raghupathi: 2020. Yeah. So that was, uh. Yeah, I remember that because I think we had just, uh. Because of the pandemic, I think everything had switched over to Zoom and lab meetings and. Yeah, and so it was. It was actually pretty convenient for you to do that. Join. To join, a lab meeting by Zoom.

Expectations of Mentors and Mentees

So when you both joined. So, Taylor you joined in 2018, you had to do a rotation in the lab, so you joined the lab to do your rotation. Towards the end of the rotation, I think we decided that you would be. You would continue to work in the lab as a. Towards your master's, thesis before moving on to the PhD. So what, was your... What was your expectation from me as a. ... a mentor and as a PI?

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah, I think at that time, I honestly didn't really know what I was expecting to get out of it. I feel like, I developed expectations as the time in grad school went on, but at the time, I had none. Yeah, I only did one rotation, and I decided to stay in the lab. My main thing was, I just expected, I think, to have someone who was supportive of me and who saw, like, the potential in me mostly. and also someone who I felt like I could spend five years of grad school, like, talking to every single day. Grad school is so long, and having, personality clashes, I feel like was something I

00:05:00

Taylor McCorkle: did not want to have. and so I think at that time, that was my main expectation. We just got along pretty well. I feel like our personalities are very similar. and we were, like, we had good communication, which is something I wanted. And also, I think the fact that you were, like, always available. At that time your office was in lab, so you were always available and accessible. but you also didn't, like, watch us do experiments and micromanage things, which I really appreciated. So I think that's kind of what I was looking for in terms of mentoring style and just someone who I felt like I could effectively Talk to for 5 years of my life.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah, no, I mean, I get asked this question a lot, particularly I think, more recently as we interview candidates for the graduate program, as to what is my mentoring philosophy and what is my mentoring style. And, you know, both of you, both you, Taylor when you were in the lab, and Nishell in your lab, you've not been my only grad student at the same time. There have been other grad students, in various , in different years, but my philosophy has always been sort of one, you know, it's not a one size fits all, you know, approach. So what your needs are, are going to be different than the other student in the lab, irrespective of where they are in their, in their graduate career. So, Nishell you came to the lab a little later, you finished a couple of rotations, and why don't you tell us a little bit about the two different styles that you've been exposed to, from a mentoring perspective.

Nishell Savory: Yeah, so the first lab I did my rotation in, the PI was like very hands off. And as Taylor was mentioning, you're kind of hands off too. But I feel like you're available if I need anything. I can text you, I could email you, and I know you're going to respond as soon as possible. That was a big thing for me and I feel like you're very open minded, you know. So, yeah, we have discussions and you take advice if I, like, have any and you give. So those are the two things I appreciated more. And then I think from my previous lab I was kind of like, lacking that. And just the lab, just the other students in the lab, like, they're very supportive and I know we all help out each other when, whenever we need to.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah. So from, you know, my perspective from, for both of you was you weren't... you were very independent, you know. So, yes, I was available to talk to you and discuss your ideas, but what helped in that was that you came to me with ideas. Right. As opposed to just walking in my, office and basically, saying, "What do I do next?" You know, and so, and especially as PhD students, that kind of, you cannot, as a, as a PI and as a mentor, I can't instill that in you. That's something that comes from within. So I think both of you have that, you know, innate sense of curiosity and the need, to ask questions and kind of think about your data, think about your experiments and think about what the next steps are and then come to me and say, "Okay, hey, I'm thinking about this. What do you think?" And then we will have a back and forth about, you know, whether that's a, doable experiment or should it be done versus should we do something else first before getting there. That, that level of independence, independent, thinking.

Taylor McCorkle: I agree. I think we were very independent, but I also feel like for me, I was super independent because you trusted me to be independent. And that's something that I appreciated. Like, you never hovered or just like stood there waiting for me to finish something.

Nishell Savory: I agree.

Taylor McCorkle: And I, yeah, I really appreciate that because I feel like when someone's watching me do something or finish something, then it makes me nervous and it makes me feel like I'm almost incompetent in a way, even though I know that's not the intention behind, like watching or micromanaging at times. But I feel like obviously like you trained us on things or older grad students, trained us at the time. But once we were effectively trained, then it was like you did not question our ability

00:10:00

Taylor McCorkle: and you let us do what we needed to do. And then we came back to you, like with the data and then we talked about it.

Ramesh Raghupathi: One thing I will tell you that I'm, you know, and you, you, you definitely experienced it. Both of you. I tend to get, sometimes depending on where you are with your experiments, I tend to get a little impatient because I'm really excited.

Nishell Savory: Yeah.

Ramesh Raghupathi: So, and, and that can be, you know, I, I, I can recognize that as being a little bit overbearing. But you know, I can only say that it comes from a good place because, I'd like to know where this experiment is going, especially if it's something that the two of us have thought about, and planned. While it's not in the same category as hovering over you, kind of watching you and looking over your shoulder. Does that in some ways put some pressure on you?

Taylor McCorkle: I feel like it can put a little pressure on you, but I also understand where it's coming from. Like, you're a PI, you're the one running the lab and writing the grants, and at, some point you need to see the data. I feel like if you just didn't ask about it or weren't excited for it, then it wouldn't make sense. but I mean, it can be pressure if it feels like the timeline is not realistic.

Taylor McCorkle: Which I feel like sometimes we have that issue. But then like Nishell said, you're very open minded. And I always felt like I could say... there was never a point in time where I felt like I could not say how I felt about things to you. So I think that's what made it easy because I would just be like, I can't do it in that time, like, I need a day or two.

Passing on Mentoring Lessons

Ramesh Raghupathi: The other thing that I think I'm also in favor of is that you're not totally dependent on on me as a mentor. Right. And so you have others that you can turn to either within Drexel. Or outside of Drexel, you know, through the Neurotrauma Society, Nishell in your case, and Taylor, through your, Diversifying CNS program, that you're a part of and also the NSP. So, Nishell, why don't you kind of tell us, a little bit about how you are able to sort of take that, you know, mentoring advice and mentoring from others, particularly those outside of Drexel and outside of the lab, and kind of merge that with how your relationship with me is, on a day to day basis.

Nishell Savory: Yeah. I mean, I have most of those, like, mentors because of you. Nice to kind of hear, like, a different perspective. Especially like, folks who've like, worked with you in the past. Like, oh, is this how. This is how Ramesh is thinking, like, how can I, how can I adjust?

Ramesh Raghupathi: I guess you've also been a mentor for other students, right? Other, like junior grad students.

Ramesh Raghupathi: And then maybe even some undergrads. So do you learn lessons from your. The way you've been mentored, either by me or by others?

Nishell Savory: Yeah, when I mess up with silly things, you, like, just laugh it off and like, just continue do it again. And I kind of have the same style with them. Like, oh, just do it again. It's not no big deal.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah,

Nishell Savory: I am very patient with them. Ramesh Raghupathi: So, Taylor.

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah, I think in terms of, like, mentoring other students, I learned a lot. I think just what Nishell said too, like, I don't take it, too seriously. If someone messes up, I don't think that's beneficial for either one of us. And it doesn't help solve the situation at all. And, I feel like that's how you were. If we messed up some part of the experiment. and again, patience is, is really important because everyone is learning. and I also just. I feel like when I talk to students about grad school, I always just say, go where you feel appreciated. And it's like, funny. But I do say to go off vibes, because I feel like when you're picking a lab to be in, you should pick the mentor. Obviously you want to be interested in the research, but you want to go where you feel like you connect with the person that is mentoring you and where you feel appreciated and feel

Taylor McCorkle: like you could be for five years minimum of your life. because that's not a short time and you don't want to be there and be miserable.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah, no, that's. That's definitely. Yeah. Ah, you know, a personal relationship and a friendship from the perspective of having to interact with each other for an extended period of time. I mean, not necessarily daily, but pretty frequently kind of.

Nishell Savory: Right, it is daily.

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah, it's daily.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Except I guess on the days that I'm either not, ah, in meetings or traveling or something like that. But, yeah, for all practical purposes, it's every day. Yeah.

Challenges in Mentoring Relationship

So so far I think everything that we've all talked about has been relatively positive. But, you know, as with any relationship, there's always going to be. There's always going to be bumps along the way. So I can't really think of any specific examples, but I'm sure you guys probably have very specific examples about what I did or did not do and should or should not have done. How did you adjust to that or adapt to that?

Nishell Savory: So one thing. Yeah, one thing that. I mean, you're. You're a big procrastinator, Ramesh. You're a very big procrastinator.

Taylor McCorkle: I was going to say that.

Nishell Savory: And the thing is, I am too. And I feel like in that aspect, it's not. It's not good because I would like, send him something like a week before it's due or so he's going to respond the day of. Make these changes. Yeah, these changes. I don't think I figured out or. Yeah, because I said I'm a procrastinator too, and I haven't really figured. I just try to get it to you as soon as possible. I think like every poster I submit or every application, just like we're working on it the day of. Or like an hour before. Before submission.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yes, that's. That. That's what I'm known for.

Taylor McCorkle: I was going to say that. And I think it stems from. Because I remember that, my issue. I said that you were over committed. Like you do so many things and I think that's what the, uh. Procrastinate. It's not like you're procrastinating. You just have so much to do.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Not like I'm scrolling through YouTube or Twitter or something.

Taylor McCorkle: I feel like you. I feel like when I brought it up to you, though, you did less or did better or were better at like delegating things off to people instead of being like the point person for everything. Because I know in like 2020, me and you, we were doing. Yeah, way too much.

Taylor McCorkle: And we were on every committee possible. We were doing everything. And I think we both needed to just take a little step back into the swing of things.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah. Yeah, we went through some. That was. That was an interesting time. The summer of 2020, and then the subsequent, fall, not just because of all the turmoil, but also because of the COVID pandemic and not knowing how to navigate those complex, situations.

Taylor McCorkle: yeah, it was hard.

Creating a Safe and Supportive Space in the Lab

I think I'm going back to a positive thing, because I feel like 2020 made me sit back and think, like, oh, yeah, I chose the right person to. For. To mentor me and the right lab to be in. Because when stuff like this happens and, you know, it's 2020, there's a lot of police brutality going on, and I'm like a black woman in this world. And in your lab, I felt like you not stepped up in a way, because I feel like all people should react the way that you react, reacted. But it was just like, the lab was a safe space. And also, you allowed

me to be heard. And, like, in all of those, like, town halls or whatever we were having, all the community, all the committees that we were doing, I felt like I could say whatever I wanted, essentially, and, like, be honest with how I felt about how, you know, the institution is responding to things, how the world is at the time. And I never was gonna get backlash from you. Like, you stood behind me, you supported me and everything that I said, and I was very appreciative of that. And I feel like that is something that

00:20:00

that your mentor needs to be there for you in that way. I feel like. Because 2020 was such a crazy time, like, who could have even wrote that up as something happening in the world? but then you have those situations, and you're like, wow, thank God I'm in this space where I can just speak freely and be upset with how things are and get time off and stuff like that. So I think that was a big year.

Do Mentors and Mentees Think Alike?

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah, I don't think we think alike.

Nishell Savory: Neither do I. Yeah, I don't think so either.

Ramesh Raghupathi: And that is also part of my, My personal philosophy is that I'm not in the business of making clones of myself. I think you have to, you know, when you leave here, leave my lab, you know, you would have hopefully learned a lot. But you also put your own spin on it, and I think... so do you both... So, Taylor, do you feel you did that? Like, you, um. You took the ideas when that we discussed when you first started on your project, but then you came in and you. You. You added your spin to it, is the way I look at it. Do you feel that?

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly what happened. And I. I agree. I don't think that we think alike, and I think that helps mentoring relationships, because on our end of things, it teaches us how to, like, speak up on things when we disagree or if we not even just disagree, but if we want to go, like, a different direction with something or

if we're really interested in something. because even with my project, like, the mechanism that I ended up studying, I was, like, slowly trying to piece together in my head, and at times it didn't all make sense. but it was something that I really wanted to look into. And I feel like you and I, we had so many conversations about it. and you, yeah, allowed me to kind of move forward with it. but I think not thinking alike is. Is helpful. And. Yeah, you don't want to just come into a lab and kind of just turn into how your mentor is. You want to have, like, your own ideas and your own philosophy and personality and kind of take everything that you've learned and then move forward with that and turn it into kind of like your own thing.

Nishell Savory: Yeah, I agree with, with Taylor. I don't think we think alike, which is a good thing, because I think we bring different perspective, perspectives and ideas to our meetings. so, yeah, and I think, just being different just helps with, like, the, the community in the lab. Like, I think everyone an undergrad can find someone that he meshes with in the lab because everyone has everything. Everyone is just so different.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I want people to disagree with me. Right. I mean, as long as the disagreement is scientific and rational and you can. And you can defend it, it can't be one of those. I disagree because Ramesh said the opposite. The. The idea should be that you should. We should all have a safe space in order to share our differing opinions. Right. And you shouldn't. I shouldn't feel, as a mentor, I shouldn't feel, scared of saying, I don't think you should do this because it's going to take a long time and it's, you know, without sounding like I don't believe in you. Right. I mean, so as a. And then you. You as a student shouldn't feel intimidated of saying either the idea is not going to work or it's just way too complicated. And we think we need to take it, you know, to a simpler level with respect to interpreting the data.

Taylor McCorkle: I will also add in that I feel like in terms of thinking alike, I think it's good that we think differently on scientific level of things. because again I think like Nishell said, diverse perspectives are really what's needed in science and it helps the lab grow more and helps our research. And I think one thing that you always try to do is get like diverse students in your lab. but

00:25:00

Taylor McCorkle: what I think is important is that we think. Think alike, very much alike on like social topics. And I feel like if we were not kind of aligned in that sense, it would have made my time in grad school way more difficult. especially like going back to

2020, like if I was sitting and I felt like I had to explain to you why I'm not doing okay right now and why I need time away from lab, like that would not go well with me. but I think it's good. So yeah, we think differently in terms of like science and how to go about things. Maybe in the field and like professionally, but on other topics that are more I, I don't know, kind of life and identity, we're very similar on.

Ramesh Raghupathi: That's a good point. I, I never really thought about it that way. But I think you make a very good point that you know, like social and community approaches and you know, values, personal values. I think it has to be the thinking alike. I think helps in that situation. But thinking alike from a, in the scientific realm is probably not. Shouldn't be the case. Yeah.

Taylor McCorkle: And they trickle over because we have similar values and we're passionate about similar things outside of lab. It does create more of a safe space within the lab and it allows us to say no, we don't think we should go that way. And allows you like. I feel like as a mentor, I don't know, maybe some mentors feel like they can't say something. But I feel like as a mentor you're usually gonna say how you feel. But it's like as mentees, can we step up and can we say no to you or say no, we think we should go this way. And I feel like the only way you feel that comfortable is having a safe space in the lab and feeling like it is a collaborative environment.

Nishell Savory: Yeah. One thing I would like to kind of add Ramesh is like very easy to like talk to. I feel like I can just come to your office and be myself. I don't have to overthink anything. I just come and we just have regular casual conversations. That's the, that's another thing too.

Taylor McCorkle: Mhm. Yeah.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah, yeah. I mean that I have to say both of you are also not shy about sharing your opinions, which I like. That is the, I mean, luckily for me with with both of you, that's not an issue. And I like that because I talk a lot and you know that. So I like for, I like for the conversations to be equal, not one sided.

Next Steps

You know, one of the things that people talk about grad school when they talk about grad school is the, the relationship between a mentor and a mentee at the very end when they're writing their dissertation and how a lot of time, that's when tempers flare

and people, you know, the, the students are, are more upset with their PIs for a number of different reasons, not the least of which is the, you know, writing is stressful. So I've been relative, you know, I, I, I don't put too much pressure on you in terms of having, you know, I, I basically tell you that your dissertation is your document and I'll kind of give you some guidelines as to what the should be. But I don't think it's been a, ah, a bad situation from the perspective of you can't say this and you should say that kind of thing. as long as you're, as long as you're able to defend it.

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah, I agree. I think that's exactly what you told me when I was writing. and what I do appreciate is that you don't like hold us hostage because I'm, like I gotta go, gotta get out of here. and my situation was unique also because I had to have surgery.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah.

Taylor McCorkle: And so I really needed to graduate and then be able to go and have surgery. so I think when I was writing I was like, we didn't have issues and I was grateful because you didn't like put too much stress on me and you knew my situation health wise. and we even like dropped some experiments that weren't working out and would have taken me like a few more months to figure out. Like

00:30:00

Taylor McCorkle: we talked about it, you told me it was fine that I dropped it. Then we talked to my thesis committee about it and they were all on the same page. and we all agreed that I had a good story to tell and had good experiments and data. and so stuff like that. I appreciate it because you didn't make it harder on me by telling me like, oh

no, you need to figure out this one experiment that has not been working for months. and so yeah, I think writing wasn't too bad, honestly. it went better than I thought it would when you're, you know, in your younger grad student years and you're thinking about writing your thesis.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yeah. So, Nishell in about a year, maybe, hopefully year, year and a half, you'll be in that situation. So I don't think you need to worry about, you know.

Nishell Savory: Good to know. Good to know.

Taylor McCorkle: Yeah. You won't be held hostage.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Yes. so, Nishell so you, you know, as I just said, you're probably what might mean maybe another 15 months. 15 to 18 months left. what are you thinking? So let's talk a little bit about next steps for you. You know, we know Taylor's doing a postdoc, and we'll get to Taylor in just a bit. But, what's next steps for you? What is. What have you, what are you thinking about? And how has this experience of spending, time in my lab, sort of facilitated your. Your thinking?

Nishell Savory: Yeah. so I do want to go into industry, once I'm done with grad school. But, one thing I do want to say, I think you see a lot of potential in me that I don't see myself because there's the stuff, like the position you've put me in, like, I'm going to be on the admissions committee and like, you have me just mentoring a bunch of these students. I wouldn't have done this if you didn't mention anything. Like, I would just came here, got the PhD and went on with my life and that was it. But just like you setting me up, I think, like, even though I'm going into industry, I think I'll still need, like, mentoring skills. so, yeah, I'm just grateful for that. yeah.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Taylor, you're what this is. You started your second year, right? Yeah, Second year as your postdoc. So how has it been?

Taylor McCorkle: It's been good so far. It's. It's interesting that, ah, we're on this podcast because I feel like I'm, now exposed to like, two different mentoring styles since throughout grad school I was only with you. Both, are good and both have worked for me. It's just funny, like, thinking back to grad school, how things were, and it's definitely a learning curve, in terms of getting used to different mentoring styles. but overall things are good. I like the research. you know, I wasn't sure if I was going to do a postdoc or not, but I'm glad that I did it. I was very much, like Nishell was saying, wanting to go into Industry, which I talked about. that's another thing in terms of mentoring that I tell people, like, if you don't want to stay in academia, ah, you want to make sure that you have a mentor that will not only be okay with that, but also facilitate your transition into industry. And I feel like you and I had a lot of talks about, industry stuff. And I ultimately chose an academic postdoc mostly because of life stuff and surgery. but I do like it. And I've actually now been kind of flip flopping between industry and academia because I do like, mentoring students. kind of like Nishell said, like, you gave us students to mentor. I feel like in a way you kind of threw us into the fire at times, but it ended up like, turning out well because we gained skills and we were doing things that we didn't know we could do or like, felt like didn't. We didn't have the credentials for. Maybe. but yeah, like in grad school I mentored a lot of students and now I'm mentoring a lot of students and I also just like doing like DEI work and having these other roles. so stuff like that makes academia appealing. Ah, to me. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, currently still doing my postdoc. we'll probably be here for a couple more years. We'll see, and then decide what to do after that.

Nishell Savory: Thank you.

Ramesh Raghupathi: Thanks. Bye.

Podcast Narrator: We hope this conversation inspired you as you navigate your own mentorship journey. This podcast is brought to you by Neuronline, SfN's home for learning and discussion, where you can find a variety of additional professional development resources and opportunities to connect with other neuroscientists. Check out the link in the show notes to learn More, Think Alike? is produced by Amanda Kimball, Adam Katz, Eiman Abdelgadir, Taylor Johnson, Emily O'Connor, Dominique Giles and Marie Dussauze. Thanks for listening.

00:35:46