Think Alike? Episode 1: Mutual Respect

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: The most successful thing in our mentoring relationship that there is mutual respect for each other's ideas. You can get feedback from me or I can ask you things and vice versa. I think that's also part of the ingredients of a successful mentoring relationship.

>> Podcast Narrator: Welcome to Think Alike, a podcast from Neuronline that delves into the art and science of mentorship within the neuroscience community. Neuronline is the Society for Neuroscience's home for learning and discussion. You can check out the link in the show notes to learn more. This episode's guests are mentor Dr. Karina Alvina and mentee Dr. Farhana Afroz

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Hi Farhana, how are you? It's great to see you. great to have this conversation and for everyone to know. My name is Karina Alvina and I am an assistant professor in the Department of Neuroscience at the University of Florida and I'm here with Dr. Kazi Farhana Afroz who was my first female grad student to complete her PhD under my supervision.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Hi Karina, it's nice to meet you. on Zoom after so many days. So and for everyone, I am Farhana, as Karina already told that I finished my PhD under her from Texas Tech University. And now I'm a third year postdoc at Emory University and I'm currently working with [sound missing] disease pathophysiological study.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah. so let's start with the basics. How we met in for everyone to know. Farhana was applying to the PhD program at Texas Tech University when I was previously a faculty and usually grad students or interested students email the faculty that they're interested in working with. Email them directly because they have to have that sort of sponsorship from a faculty member. And so I got an email from Farhana and she explained her motivation to do a PhD. We met on Skype back then. There was no Zoom.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: There's no Zoom at that time.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah. So we Skyped, we had a really nice conversation. and I got a really positive impression from Farhana. I thought she was very motivated. I was very impressed with her because she was a young mother, had a two year old daughter and she was going to bring her daughter with her. She was traveling from, from overseas. And and I thought wow, this, this must be a really motivated person because she is not only coming you know herself, she's also bringing a two year old daughter with her. And, and I was not mistaken Farhana really truly had that passion and that motivation that As soon as I met her in person it was pretty clear that she was very serious about that about the motivation to pursue a PhD and to do anything in her power to make it happen.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah, thanks for linking up all those old days stories. But yeah from my end I after like graduating after finishing my undergrad, I had a like almost seven years of a break from my study because I got married. Then I got my child. So after that I started looking for pursuing my PhD. And when I was going through different professors' websites I came across Karina. And then from her website I learned that there's a nice, some, Some very interesting research is going on. So that's why I contacted her and I was very skeptical that would I be able to do it or not. But she was very positive. So that's why So I came to us with my daughter and then I met her at Texas State University.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah, that's how we became mentor - mentee

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: So when before coming here I only had the goal that I will do, I will get a PhD degree. I also I would say I was very naive that I did not have any idea how it goes, the work pressure. But I had an idea that I will have to do some coursework and then some do some research. So that was my goal is that I will learn, I will study on the field of neuroscience, then diseases, autism, like that. But then when I came here actually the real life hit because then I figured out that It's not only the research of the study, there's many other pressures that. But I think that also helped you or like our relation grew more, become more mature because you were, you were kind of a support for me in both cases. Both. Mhm. Professionally and like personally which helped me to achieve my major goal. So what was your goal regarding like me having as a trainee?

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: I would say it's. There's a little bit of that kind of a combination of things As a, as a mentor of course you think I have to mentor this person through their Ph.D. and in. But also it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of interaction, that relationship, that mentoring relationship. It becomes more than just what happens in the lab, what happens with your experiments, what happened with your results. and in your case there were you know, personal challenges and to me it was a challenge too because I didn't know, I didn't know necessarily how to deal with that. And I just remember thinking, if I can help you, kind of facilitate the process of getting things sorted out and you know, without going into any personal details. But if that makes you as a, as a PhD student, as a grad student, be okay, have the mental energy, the mental kind of capacity to work on your things, it is going to be better for how you develop your PhD. It's going to be better for you as you develop as a grad student. So I think initially, it was very it was a little scary as a mentor because when Farhana joined my lab, I had been there for a year, a year and a half or so. So I was still going through that sort of quote, baby PI, phase. And you as a PI, As a mentor. You don't have a handbook. Nobody teaches you how to be a mentor. And it also that relationship, I think, it needs that. it's a two, two person relationship obviously. but I think it teaches both, not just the mentee, also the mentor. And also it's important to realize you don't know that person. You know that this person is going to be your PhD advisor, for example, and you're going to have a working relationship but you know, a professional relationship by mentoring. I think it's more than that, more than just that side of things. In research you end up spending a lot of time with your trainees or in the same environment. So there is a personal relationship that also develops, and it is sometimes tricky because it is also very much dependent on that professional development.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: in, in my country, I'm from Bangladesh, so in our, in my country the, the mentor mentee relationship is not like that. Like we cannot have any small talk with our professors. It's very disrespectful to them. So like any personal talk is like prohibited kind of stuff. So that's why I never, I never talked with any of my professors in this way. So I thought it's gonna be same. So it will just my be my professor, who I will be doing my research under who so, so. But when my real life struggles with. Came in front of me, I was very, I became very like agitated and very tensed. But then I, then when I met you and you, I believe you were the one who asked me about how is the weather, how is everything going? So at that time I felt like, oh okay, it's not only me. So you are, you are also one that is maybe thinking about my like how I'm being. Am I Being okay or not. So that was a very relieved situation. And as you mentioned, you know that I came with my 2 years old daughter and my husband was in a different continent at that time

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: So and I came, I started my PhD during spring, so it was January and the west Texas was cold. Yeah, extremely cold. And I came from a tropical country so that was very difficult for me. But at least I knew that there's someone, at least I'm working with, that person who thinks about me, who cares about me. and whenever I was sick or my baby was sick, you were like, okay, take a time, look after, look, look for your kid, like if she is good, are you. So that was a big support I would say at that time of my, at that struggling time of my life.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah, I definitely think that that was maybe a bonding experience. I also had younger children at that time and could definitely relate, could definitely relate to that situation where you can you really want to focus on your experiments, on your work. But you know, you have a child that needs care and you're in that complicated kind of navigating that complicated environment. And I think that created definitely a point where we could relate to each other's situation and we could appreciate what we were doing to support each other. Because at the time, I should say that Farhana, is the first female student that I graduated and I had another student, another male student. And those were, they were the two grad students that I had in my lab. And I also, I think leaned on them a lot, to support for the lab for you know, the other grand, the other undergrads, the trainees, the younger trainees. and so there was a lot of me leaning on them and leaning on Farhana in particular, for my own professional development in a way. and the personal bonding definitely made it made it easier in a way. And it's not like we became best friends, of course we we have a very professional relationship, but at least we could understand each other in certain struggles. And as a mentor, I was very fortunate to have good mentors before in my life. Not, not everybody, but you know, a few. And they cared about me as a person, not just me in the lab doing experiments. And that's the same kind of relationships that I wanted to build with my trainees in the lab. And also I could see that Farhana was really trying, was also very invested in taking care of her things so she could be in the lab and when she was in the lab. It was incredible. I always tell her that she made my job as a PhD advisor so easy. It was great to see her so invested, so energetic and so serious about it.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Thank you for saying all. But I would, I would like to mention that at. the reason I was so. Yeah, one, was I was so invested in the research because, one, I wanted to do it. But another thing is that when you were caring, for me as a person, I felt the sense of responsibility that in return I should also put effort on my work as well because that is our main relationship. You are my PI and I am a PhD student. So I have to work on my stuff that I am supposed to do.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: In, in our case, I think we met weekly or bi weekly to discuss, you know, data and experiments in. We also met sometimes, you know, spontaneously, randomly. If something was not working or something was working or something new happened. It was pretty kind of a combination of having scheduled regular meetings, but also very open to, whenever was needed and was possible. We would meet and discuss something.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: you respected my research ideas, my studies, like whenever I came up with an idea. Because I have seen, I have, I have heard several horror stories that just PI don't. Just doesn't give any, any respect to the, to the person who's coming up with some ideas. They just like, they just bash it. But you were like very much into it. Okay, it's maybe sounding bizarre, maybe like feeding mice with high salt diet. It sounded bizarre. But you let me do it. You say that. Okay, let's go ahead, let's see how it works. And then if nothing, if something didn't work, we changed our direction. But at the end of the day, it resulted into two of my first author papers which helped me to get into a good postdoc. So I, I would say that yes, not only you, how you supported me personally, also you establish a respectful relationship with me and my thoughts, my ideas and my efforts that helped me to gain my confidence that, okay, I can do it, I can finish it on time. So I think that works very well in our mentor mentee relationship, I'd say. And it's very important aspect of like having a good mentor and good mentee that at least they have an understanding between them not only in personal life, also in the, in the research related areas.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah. And I think it's like you said, it's definitely part of this positive relationship that there is respect for each other when you have an idea, when you come up with something New, it's great for me. I mean, I get super excited about, you know, new ideas all the time. And as PI, it also gets a little exhausting sometime if you are the, the main source of all those ideas. So having more people next to you that are thinking about their, their research, thinking about ways to make it making, you know, a bigger impact or for moving in a different direction when you have to. It's like I said, it. It just made you made my, my job a lot easier in that, in that, in that in that way. and I think that's probably one of the most successful, the more. The most successful things in our mentoring relationship. That there is mutual respect for each other's ideas and that we can, give each other, you know, you can get feedback from me or I can ask you things and you might think, you might say, oh, I don't think, you know, that might be possible for xyz and vice versa in there is mutual respect. I think that's also part of the ingredients of a successful mentoring relationship.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: If you remember, Karina, that when I was in Texas Tech student, I used to like participate in several kind of like different activities like competitions. So I. You were like encouraging all the time. So yes, you can go here, you can do. And I did. And now when I look at my CV that okay, I got this grant I got from this from Texas Tech.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: So those were a lot of like those. Not only those scholarships, not only helped me financially, but it gave me a recognition and my CV got like much richer. I think those help me. Not only help me during my PhD time, it also still helping me.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah. Now I am remembering that you even went to a couple of conferences to present your work and I wasn't even there. I didn't even go to those conferences. But you were in. I remember this is all kind of coming back now. But we had conversations about that, that exposure being good for you, being good for your future, being good for your next step, for your, you know, for your career in the. In the long run. and I think that also comes because I trusted that you were going to. That you could do it, that you could not only put together a poster, you could also go and travel to a conference and present it in and get feedback and show sort of the world what you were working on. I trusted that you could be, that you could do that. And I think that was, it was great. I moved to a different institution in the middle of your thesis. And then the pandemic hit so those are very external challenges to you in a way. There's. There's no control. but what do you. What's your side of the. You know, how did you see those. Those major challenges?

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yes, so those I had, like, positive and negative. Those. There were challenges. But, for. From all the challenges, I'd say I became more stronger and like my mental strength, my emotional strength grew for both in research area or in. In my. In my personal life. So the. Yes, of course the. The biggest challenge was. Was not your moving was the COVID Because it was a different time. Like, even my family. One of my family members died. You know that my grandma died during COVID

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah. So that was, you know, hard because it was the time when none of us could work. But anyway, I. And you moved, so. So that means I have a. I have to do those kind of those. All the research and stuff by myself.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yes.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: you were in contact all the time, but in the lab, you know, as a student, we get kind of. We get. Or, like we lack the enthusiasm when. When your PI is not here. I felt kind of same situations like, okay, no, I have to go again. But anyway. But. But I also. It also gave me the sense of responsibility or increased my sense of responsibility. Okay. Now it. It's my. It's more on my. My side. I have to be more responsible because I have to finish the run. I have to do it apart from all this challenges, I have to finish it. So. Yeah, that's why, So that's why I saying there was. There were challenges, and those challenges helped me to be stronger to do that. And at the same time, last, year, you pushed me to apply for the post docs as well. And I would say thank you for that because...

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: the last year of the. Of the. Of your thesis.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah, because I was not even thinking about it that I have to do that. Because I was thinking I have so many work and.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: How I'm gonna get some time to apply for postdocs. But you said you have to do it, so. Yeah, that. That challenge. I took that challenge. But it helped me so well that I just got my offer and before my PhD and before even my defense.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: When I defended. So that was. I had those challenges. But in the same way, from those challenges, I surprisingly, I got, I got good results, I would say.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah. I think that also is a testament of how you are the kind of person that approaches a challenging situation. you know, you embrace that and you think in the long run, maybe, you know, this is going to be. This is going to make me a stronger candidate for, you know, XYZ in the future. this is going to be the way for me to, be able to accomplish. Accomplish things. And we always say that, you know, in your PhD, it's your work. You're the person that cares the most. Well now you were also technically alone because I was not there and we were in the middle of a pandemic, so it probably felt very isolating. and on my end we. I remember that we had, you know, zoom meetings that we were. We were able to manage and luckily you had completed, I think, a lot of the data collection before that.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: yeah, I was mostly doing the data analysis.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Analysis. Yeah. So that also helped. but it was, It was scary when I was moving, you know, to another. To. To the University of Florida. This was late 2019, when we were in the midst of that, planning and all that. It was not really an option for you to move, because you're. You had reunited with your husband. He was also a grad student at Texas Tech, if I remember.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah, yeah, he finished his PhD. Yeah.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: And it was just not possible for all of you to move. And you were also more than halfway through your thesis, so it was better to just stay and finish, in. And I knew, that you were going to be the kind of student that could manage to do that even if I was not physically there. and yeah, you definitely did not, disappoint. The opposite. it was great, to see you develop into a, fully independent, researcher. And I'm sure that, also help you now that you're, as a postdoctoral, you know, fellow. The expectation is that you are truly independent. I hope that experience sort of helped you to where you are right now.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah. it helped me because, one of my, you know, like, top qualities that was recognized by the. By the people who are recruiting when I was applying, like most of them were saying, so okay, it's, it's great that you finished. you went through this challenge, challenging times and you finished with. On time. what could be in like next for our relationship, the next step.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Well, I definitely hope we still. We are in touch. You know, I'm, I'm looking forward to be a mentor, to you for. For life in a way. In the same way that I, I have that relationship with the person that was me at my PhD advisor. and I'll always be very supportive of, you know, whatever career or whatever next step you want to take.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah. For me as well, you know, whenever something happens, I text you.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: That's true.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Whenever I face kind of a dilemma, that what should I do now? I would like to have your suggestions.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: I also, I should, I should mention that it's also for the positive things like when I see that Farhana published a paper or something, I am first one to text her, you know, congratulations on your paper. That makes me super, super proud. I don't think it's. It needs to be a requirement to think alike all the time with, you know, regarding anything. but I think it helps that relationship to at least some, degree. think alike. Just like the title. and I think in our case, me and Farhana, I think we both take our work seriously, to take what we do seriously and make it a priority. And I, I don't want to speak for you, Farhana, but I, I feel like that's one of the things that. Where we can really say we think alike.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah. For me, I believe, mentor mentee it may have the similarity in their thoughts. But the most important, most important thing is like they should have respect for each other's thought as well when they will have respect for other one's thought that will make the relationship grow very easily. So I think that is, that is the most important thing.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: It's totally okay to have multiple people in your life as mentors. that there's not a, like I said, there's no one, one size fit all. mentor. It's important to not feel afraid of asking for help, asking for advice. Most people I think want to give that advice. And some people, you know, may just personality or you know, or something more personal might. May seem a bit more distant but you know, it. It only takes to ask for that or establish a conversation. And I think having people in your corner as you go through this career is very, very important in having supportive people that do things with you. And for you, it's fundamental. So don't feel afraid of kind of maybe even getting a little bit out of your comfort zone to, to seek advice, to seek for help that you might need in your. In your career.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: So Karina, when I was looking for postdoc, Dr. Carr gave me a very nice advice. I spoke. So when I'm talking for the future prospective mentees, so whenever they're looking for a lab or a PI, they should not look, look for the, how big the lab is they should. Whenever the interaction happens, like for interview, they should see that the PI. Are they thinking about. Are they, like, recruiting a, like a worker or. they're recruiting a person who will have a person.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: A colleague. Yeah.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: person. So when someone is recruiting a person with their personal life, that means they're going to care for you.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Okay. Thanks, Farhana, for sharing, this time with me. Like I said, we'll continue texting each other, you know, here and there to keep each other, in touch with how our lives are going.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: Yeah. And it was very nice talking to you and, like, remembering all those past days.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah. All the good and the bad.

>> Dr. Farhana Afroz: All good and bad. It was very nice. Back to you. And. Yeah, of course I'm going to. I'm going to keep texting you.

>> Dr. Karina Alvina: Yeah.

>> Unidentified (Podcast Host): We hope this conversation inspired you as you navigate your own mentorship journey. This podcast is brought to you by Neuronline, SfN's home for learning and discussion, where you can find a variety of additional professional development resources and opportunities to connect with other neuroscientists. Check out the link in the show notes to learn more. Think Alike is produced by Amanda Kimball, Adam Katz, Eiman Abdelgadir, Emily O'Connor, Dominique Giles, and Marie Dussauze