In Part 2 of their conversation, Cori Fain, Karina Alviña, and Eduardo Rosa-Molinar dig into what to do when mentoring relationships don’t go as planned, from unresponsive advisors to unhealthy dynamics. They share practical strategies for advocating for yourself, starting hard conversations, and building a mentoring network (including peers, committee members, and program involvement) to ensure broad options for support. The conversation also looks ahead at how mentoring evolves over a career and why different perspectives can be a strength in the lab.
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Karina Alviña: Have that conversation where you express what is not working for you. And I'veactually heard of several cases where that conversation happened and it did make a big change.
Cori Fain: If you really advocate for yourself, find the pieces of things that you need, that you can bring together. You can find it.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: This is for life. Because you’re constantly having to figure out ways how to move people, how to encourage them.
Podcast Narrator: Welcome to Think Alike, a podcast from Neuronline that delves into the art and science of mentorship within the neuroscience community. Neuronline is the Society for Neuroscience's home for learning and discussion. Join or renew your SfN membership to be part of the premier neuroscience community that's pushing the field forward. Support your career and advance the field alongside your peers. With year round unlimited access to expert led webinars, SfN annual meeting perks and many other benefits. Become a member of the Society for Neuroscience or rejoin today at sfn.org/membership. This episode is part two of a conversation with Dr. Cori Fain, Dr. Karina Alviña, and Dr. Eduardo Rosa-Molinar. Visit Neuronline or your favorite podcast app to listen to part one.
Cori Fain: My name is Cori Fain. I am a postdoctoral researcher at University of Iowa in the lab of Dr. John Hardy.
Karina Alviña: My name is Karina Alviña. I am a faculty member in the department of neuroscience at the University of Florida.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I'm Eduardo Rosa-Molinar. I'm a professor of cell biology, physiology, neuroscience and imaging science at Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine. We've been talking about various you know, our relationships. Right. And how we've done things non traditionally.But I also know that, that we also had, and we've been in situations where either we experienced or you know of someone who basically has had some very bad mentors or mentors that don't respond to you. So Cori, how did you deal with that? How would you give some people some advice?Mentor some of our younger colleagues of how to deal with this.
Cori Fain: I can say that I have been in that situation where someone was going through that and I say number one, be a friend. Like you know, be someone they can vent to and let out the frustration because I think that helps in and of itself. I would say this person, this particular experience was a peer of mine.So I didn't really feel like it was like 100 percent my place to tell them what to do or anything in that situation. I just listened and said that is, that's unfortunate. And like what do you feel like you're not getting? What, what do you need and how can we find it for you? Because we can, you know, and I would try to. And some of, some of the programs we were talking about earlier, like I recommend those to a lot of people because sometimes when you need you know, neuroscience mentorship or you need just mentorship in general. Like these programs can help you build that community even when you can't yourself. So I have recommended things like that in the past. I've recommended groups within the college we were atat the time. I've recommended reaching out to your, your thesis committee members and like getting more involved with really talking with them more often. I recommended all those things. I think that if you really advocate for yourself and you really find the pieces of things that you need that you can bring it together, you can find it.
Karina Alviña: Yeah, I agree with what Cori said in the sense of,you have to absolutely advocate for yourself. In situations where I think there is a maybe an unresponsive mentor or somebody or, you know, expectations not met with that mentor, eventually, yes, I think youhave to find help somewhere else. But I would say at least try to make a very real effort, a very intentional effort tohave a conversation with that mentor, to express your feelings, to express, you know, that this lack of response or this, you know, not meeting expectationsresponse is affecting you. So have that conversation first. Have that conversation where you express, you know, respectfully but very honestly what is not working for you in that relationship. And I'veactually heard of several cases where that conversation happened and it did make a big change because the mentor first maybe was clueless, really, honestly, about not even seeing what the problem was. That there was a problem, and hearing it from somebody that is telling you, like, I am honestly expecting you to do this thing, and it's not happening. And it's affecting me as a, you know, going back to the example, grad student, you know, PhD advisor, as a PhD advisor, you want your students to do well.
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Karina Alviña: So at least give it a real effort to try to fix that. If it comes to, you know, a point that you really don't think that even after having that conversation, things are moving in any, you know, positive direction, then, of course, if you're a student, you have your thesis, your committee. Those are the group of faculty that are familiar with the work that you're doing, familiar with your project, familiar with you, because they have seen you, at, meetings, committee meetings and whatnot. So I think you should also try to connect with them in that sense. And then, of course, there's always a graduate coordinator, some other faculty member, I think, that can provide that extra help.
Cori Fain: And I will say, in the situation that I was thinking of, the person was very vocal. So they were very vocal. They had talked to their PI several times, and it wasn'tlike, there was no bad intent on the part of the PI either. I think they were just extremely busy and having trouble keeping up with it all. And so it was a situation where, you know, I felt like just... It was not bad on anyone's part. Everyone's doing what they can, but the person was seeking support.
Karina Alviña: And I think that's why it's important to have a mentoring network, a mentoring group of people. Right. Soyou're not putting all your eggs in one basket. You have more people that can, you know, provide with you know, the science mentorship of it, the emotional, like professional, you know, in different areas of your life. So you don't feel like you have nobody, that you have no support, especially in academia. If you're a PhD student, a postdoctoral fellow, it is a very high pressure environment. It's very stressful, very demanding. And you don't want on top of that to feel that you have no support to begin with. Yes, you have your research advisor, you have that person that is the head of the lab that you work in. But nothing prevents you from having a group of people that you can reach out that you can go to. And also your peers, I should say.
Cori Fain: I was going to say that, I was going to say I think some of the best non traditional peer mentors or friends, I mean I look at, you know, we all have to go off in our different institutions and do everything but you're, you'll always be friends and so I'll reach out to them all the time. My best friend Cathy, she has a lab at Duke now and she's going through all the things that I haven't gone through yet. SoI'm just constantly asking her questions. What was interviewing like, what was this? Like how do you negotiate? Like what do, do you know? So she, I think I consider her a very important mentor in my life.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I have, I have the example of an extreme. So, I mean I had, and I think it might have informed the way that I, that I mentor. I mean I had a really bad PhD advisor, my original one. They come to extent that basically I just left the lab and I, and I went to another lab and I can. The guy that basically took me into his lab, Sheldon Hendricks, who passed away a couple years ago. Shel was an incredible scientist and a really good friend.And you know, and what was really interesting though is his management, his style, right?So I have this Ann Egan/Sheldon Hendricks kind of combo of how I basically view you know, dealing in a lab. So, Shel was really a cool guy. But basically what, what I've seen is that there are very few examples in which I think that there are relationships that you can’t save. And the one that I had, the toxic one.That's a relationship that's not worth saving. Even to this extent, you know, this guy keeps on trying to communicate with me and I won't do that because I'm not God. You know, I don'tforgive. So, so, so I, and I think it was something pathological. And we had a Fellow who had, was in a very toxic relationship and this guy during, one of the, one of the sessions basically openedup and I think you were on that and I think you were on there, Cori. And, and I'm, and I work with him and he was in a very badrelationship and he was going to basically give up. And I told him there is no way in hell you're going to give up. We will find a way to get you done. And he's done and he's now as a postdoc at Janelia. And the thing is that what you've got to be able to do, like in these sessions, like when we have these sessions in the NSP,
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Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: these are very important sessions that you need to open up because there's a lot of people who have a lot of different experiences even dealing with extremely toxic relationships that are not worth saving. Or finding a way to get your mentor or this person to respond to actually help you move forward.And the only way we're going to find out about these things is by talking. And you should never be afraid to talk.
Karina Alviña: There's only so much that we can do with the information that we have. Like I said, get the advice and the point of view of multiple people. And I agree with you Eduardo, that in very extreme cases it'sprobably not worth it to try to rescue anything in the first place because it's just not good for you.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: Cori - what, what do you think the new, what do you think the future is? What do you think? Are you gonnamentor me as an old fart?
Cori Fain: Yeah. I gotta whip you into shape.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: Okay. And I think, I think between. I think, I think you and Karina will probably, probably do that.
Karina Alviña: Too late for that!
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I mean, but you know that…I think I'mgonna learn a lot of things from you. Obviously all this new, all this new science that you're doing. Soyou're going to be mentoring me, you know, as an old fart.
Cori Fain: I hope I will be a worthy mentor. You have been so far, so I will do my best.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: No, no, you don'thave, you don't owe me anything. I mean, you're doing great. Same with Karina. Karina is probably going to do the same thing. She's soon going to be whipping me into shape as well.
Karina Alviña: I think it's good to you know, to listen. I think in, you knowin my experience at least, new, muchyounger students, younger generations, I mean they're all teaching me new things all the time. And I think it's good to listen, and try to understand if we're still doing this as we are right now - and I'm talking about Eduardo and I, Cori, you're still starting - yes, I think wedefinitely need to listen and adapt. This is a relationship that changes, I think with time and with different and at different stages.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I'm still figuring out Gen Z, Millenials. I mean, you know, that's why I'm saying I'mgonna need some mentorship here because you know, it is, you know, it is very different for being, you know… I'm a 68 year old neuroscientist doing stuff and it's, I've seen a lot of different things and it'svery different. And so you know, instead of being judgmental, I've discovered that basically it's like, okay, I gotta figure this out because I don't think they respond to the same things for motivation that, that you know, or their problems are very different than trying to solve these things. So, so that's why, that's why I keep on saying this is for life. Because you're constantly having to figure out ways how to, how to move people, how to encourage them. I mean it is just, it'sjust amazing. SoI'm going to have to get some clues from you guys…
Karina Alviña: I think weneed to, we need to remember that as scientists, like the nature of what we do is to try things and see how they work and respond to the change, right? Respond to learn.
Cori Fain: Yeah, always be learning.
Karina Alviña: We have to do that. That's, that'sjust you know, biology. So same principle. Principle here. So I think we yeah, we should definitely be humble and at least listen to you know, opinions that might look different but maybe they're not as different. But you know, at least I think that the listening part is, it's what's,what's important. And yeah, I learned a lot of you know, from my students. I also have, you know, teenager kids that are extremely honest and opinionated.
Cori Fain: SoI'm going to learn from my kids and then I'm going to come back and answer your question, Eduardo. You're going to be like, what does rizz mean? And I'm like, what does rizz mean?Yeah.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I mean, there are these words that they're, they're throwing at me and I have no clue.
Cori Fain: Do I think mentors and mentees think alike? They inherently would have some similarities in their base of knowledge if they took the time during their relationship to learn from one another. So there would be those similarities there. But I think for overall knowledge, I would say no, because, well, number one, no other person can have the exact lived experience as any other person,
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Cori Fain: so there will always be differences. And two, I think that we should all be learning and adapting as we go, and in our mentoring relationships. So I hope that even my future self doesn't think like my past self because that means I haven'tgrown.
Karina Alviña: I think I agree with you in the sense that, I think there are certain areas where, they should, they should think alike, you know, especially when it comes to their, their common, interest in, you know, in their projects to be successful and their careers to be successful. But I don't think it's a requirement that they need to agree on, you know, on everything. No, you know, two different people can have really very different views, but they just have to agree on the important things for each other's, you know, career, for each other's life. I think as long as that is, that is happening, they're both on the same page there. You know, other things I think can, you know, they can disagree or even think in, you know, in opposite ways, but in what is important for their common goal there should be some, I think, element, some level of overlapping at least on wanting the same things in that moment, in that phase of their careers.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: You know, I'm going to say the contrary. I don't think they should agree at all. And, and the reason is I think itbasically deals with the, so-called mentor. I mean, in my case, I like people with divergent ways of thinking about things. And it's because of the, it'sthe creativeness. Because to me, I think their, that ingenuity that they have or that spark that they have for figuring things out. I think I've got to figure out ways as their mentor or their colleague, how to make their views and how to make their ideas to push them forward. And I don't think any. And there's not a single student I've ever had that done has done anything similar to me. And the reason is that I really do think, creativity is the essence of what we do. And if they think weird or they're trying to push something different, I mean, I think I'm there to basically push it. I mean, I don't think, I mean, nobody has done it, has done anything remotely similar. So that's why I say, you know, bring on the diversity of thinking.
Karina Alviña: I love it. I'm going to just add one thing. I think they should have some, some common goals. But they should also have, or feel that they have thefreedom to disagree if, ifthat's the case. So when I say common goals doesn't mean that they have to, you know, continue doing the same thing.Like the, the trainees, they have to keep, you know, when they start their own lab they have to continue with the same thing? No, not at all. I'm thinking if this is a PhD student and a PhD advisor, at the very least, they both have to want this project to succeed and do everything in their hands for that to happen. But when it comes to maybe directions that the project is going or different things that are happening, I think both should feel the freedom of saying, no, I disagree, or no, I don't think that this is the case, or I think this is much, much more interesting thing to do than this other thing. So in that sense, not much thinking alike, maybe, or enough to provide that diversity of thoughts and opinions.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: Mic drop.
Cori Fain: I will be reaching out to the both of you, by the way, for advice.
Karina Alviña: Oh, 100%.
Cori Fain: I'm looking forward to diving into all of this.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: You have my cell phone number,you can call me anytime.
Karina Alviña: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, this conversation was awesome, you guys.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I'm actually looking at both of you.I'm saying, wow, look at that. That's pretty cool.
Cori Fain: Don't make me cry.
Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I'mgonna cry. And I don't cry!
Karina Alviña: Thank you so much every, everybody for this really awesome conversation.
Podcast Narrator: We hope this conversation inspired you as you navigate your own mentorship journey. This podcast is brought to you by Neuronline, SfN's Home for Learning and discussion, where you can find a variety of additional professional development resources and opportunities to connect with other neuroscientists. Check out the link in the show notes to learn more. Think Alike is produced by Amanda Kimball, Adam Katz, Cashen Almstead, Taylor Johnson, Emily O’Connor, Dominique Giles and Marie Dussauze. Thanks for listening.
