“Think Alike?” Episode 12: Demystifying Mentorship – Part One

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: To me, what this thing that we call mentoring is, when you see potential, you basically push it.

Cori Fain: I think it's very important to try to build little communities everywhere you go.

Karina Alviña: Also maybe a little bit of tough love sometimes when it's needed because, you know, we all need that.

Narrator: Welcome to Think Alike?, a podcast from Neuronline that delves into the art and science of mentorship within the neuroscience community. Neuronline is the Society for Neuroscience’s home for learning and discussion. Join or renew your SfN membershipto be part of the premier neuroscience community that's pushing the field forward. Support your career and advance the field alongside your peerswithyear-round unlimited access to expert-led webinars, SfN annual meeting perks, and many other benefits. Become a member of the Society for Neuroscience or rejoin today at sfn.org slash membership. This episode is part one of a conversation with Dr. Cori Fain, Dr. Karina Alviña, and Dr. Eduardo Rosa-Molinar. Be sure to subscribe and listen to part two. 

Cori Fain: My name is Cori Fain. I am a postdoctoral researcher at University of Iowa in the lab of Dr. John Hardy.

Karina Alviña: My name is Karina Alviña. I am a faculty member in the department of neuroscience at the University of Florida.

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I'm Eduardo Rosa-Molinar. I'm a professor of cell biology, physiology, neuroscience and imaging science at Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine.

Karina Alviña: And we're here to talk about mentoring.So, Cori, why don't you tell us maybe your definition.

Cori Fain: I think that mentoring is about adaptability. I think it's like any relationship, you, you meet halfway with the person and you want to know what they need from you and what you need from them so that you can learn from each other. I think you can mentor people above you, mentor people at the same level as you, mentor people that are not to the same level yet. I think there's no limitingdefinition of mentorship.

Karina Alviña: Yeah, I agree with you that there's no, just one theory that defines what a mentor is. We had been sort of framing it as not one size fits all. I think it's important to recognize that it's also changing. You know, it's a relationship that changes with time, changes with your situation, with your stage. But I think more importantly at least to me, to mentor somebody is to help thembecome kind of a better version of themselves in any direction that they want to go. As maybe cheesy as it sounds, become the better version of you. But so it's, you know, supporting. It's also making sure that they are, you know, meeting the right people, that they are getting, you know, their network is expanding. Also maybe a little bit of tough love sometimes when it's needed. Because you know, we all need that. So that is to me what mentor is. And also people should definitely have multiple, not just one person that covers all the bases. Just different people that are good at different things and that can providebetteradvice in different situations.

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I agree both with Cory and with Karina. I mean, to me, I still don't know what mentoring is and I've been doing this for a long time. And you know, the thing is, to me, it's just being able to, when you meet somebody… When I met Cori… Cori’s career, I think, is very similar to mine. I mean, she was a technician. Andyou know what? Mycomment to her is, “You're too damn smart and there's more for you.” And I kept on pushing, you know, and asking and that to me is how my relationship is with everybody. I mean, I always, when I see potential and talent, I really, really get excited and I want to see them do better. And I think if you call that mentoring, so be it. But I mean, I just think it's just my curiosity just to see why wouldn't you do it, why wouldn't you aspire to something more? And look at you now, Cori.

Karina Alviña: Dr. Cori!

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: Doctor.

Cori Fain: Doctor, Doctor, Doctor.

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: Yeah. Which I am extremely proud.

Cori Fain: Oh, thank you. Without you pushing me, I may not, seriously may not be here. You're of course, like, no, no, no, no, no, you need to do this. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. You know, so you had to tell me that, you know, someone had… People had to point it out to me that I should be doing this, you know. And I knew I loved it. I knew that I was good at it, but I didn't think anything else. So I do appreciate it.

Karina Alviña: I love what you bring up, Cori, that in some circumstances, the presence of one or two people in your life could be really life changing, really transformative. And it has happened to me also in my experience, definitely. I think that's why I'm so thankful of still being part of NSP, the Neuroscience Scholar Program at SfN, which we forgot to mention, Eduardo. We are now co-directing this program that I was a fellow a few years ago – well,  more than a few, when I was a postdoc – and it was life changing to me. And I found mentors that were supportive and like you were saying, Cori, maybe they pointed out to me things that I didn't even believe that I could do. And they made me feel like, okay, well, if somebody else is thinking that I could do it, maybe I could do it, maybe I should try it. And I think that's the effect that a mentor can have in somebody's life. And it's sad to think that maybe some people never get that for whatever reason, and their life might be very different if they had just maybe randomly met someone or become part of an organization, become part of a network that supported them.

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I agree with what Corti just said…And like Karina just said in full disclosure, we are the PIs of the NSP. But I go back even further than that when there was no NSP, and how this society that we all belong to, this Society for Neuroscience started out with this vision. It was just a few people that basically bring up people that look like us, and who have, you know, we are different. And these well-minded, well-rounded people, you know, just basically pushed this agenda which, you know, which came out to the NSP. And they pushed this agenda. None of my mentors even looked like me. And then basically they got us to where it is. And where I met Karina. And where I really thought that Karina needed some mentoring was when she was very hesitant about taking next steps. And I told her, you can do this and the next steps were to be a PI. And she was very, very, very cautious, very, very, very hesitant about doing this. And I said no, you have the ability to do this. And all she needed was a little bit of pushing and prodding and she can do it. Yeah, and you're awesome. Right now with your roles that you have in the NSP, I mean you're just taken off. And that is basically I think what mentoring, I mean to me what this thing that we call mentoring is – when you see potential, you basically push it. And full disclosure, I have no relationship other than friendship or seeing the relationship or establishing friendships with both Cori and with Karina.

Karina Alviña: I think that's a very, very good point, Eduardo, that I think I make a distinction between, you know, helping people because in certain circumstances that might help you in the long run. But no, we are talking about people if they do well in their careers, that's amazing. It's for them. And there's really no benefit directly to us. So it's very selfless, right? The impact that you can have in someone, in their lives, in their careers and just because you want them to, you know, to do better and it makes you proud and it makes you happy. I think that's a part of this career, this academic career, that I really value.And maybe Cori, you can tell us a bit your more your experience because you're much younger than us. You're starting in this,“starting” quote because you're a postdoctoral fellow. So not really, you know, a baby, but much, much junior.How do you see that aspect of impacting lives that are not necessarily, going to impact yours, your career?

Cori Fain: I think that what we have, which would be I think considered the nontraditional peer mentoring situations are some of the most important so far in, in my career and life. And I think it's very important to try to build little communities everywhere you go. And I did that without really knowing how I was doing that. I look back now and I say, wow, it's super important that I did that because I'm now working with you all the time. And you were on NSP leadership, I think, when I was an NSP. And then just full circle, you end up working with everyone for the rest of your lives and you don't really think about that when you're in training. I feel like I was a PhD student, when I was you know, really finding this out, I think. But I just kind of followed my curiosity. SoI was just lucky. I just had questions and I would stop at nothing to get answers. I'm just like that kind of person and my brain's wired that way. So I would see something cool and I'd be like, I have to know everything about this right now. I think that's how as I met Eduardo, he was doing really cool science. And I was like, I don't know how to do this. What is this? Tell me everything about it. And I would sit in his office for hours and he would explain to me everything they're doing. And I was just fascinated. And that was just me being weird. That was just me being me. So I didn't think that,“oh, I'm building this community,” but that's really what it turns into. And it's probably the only way for me to build communities, honestly, because I'm kind of shy. I don't really talk a whole lot unless it is about science. And then I can't stop talking, of course. So I lucked out. But I think for people maybe that are shy or things like that, make sure you are trying to get out there and somehow find a way you feel comfortable of making your community, I would say.

Karina Alviña: Yeah, I think that's a very, very important point. That if you want advice, if you want, if you need guidance, don't think that just your PhD advisor is the only one that can provide all of that – this is for grad students and postdocs– or your research advisor is the one person that can provide advice and mentorship for everything. I feel like this could be sometimes a source of frustration when maybe you expect this one person to fit all these different molds, but the reality is that very few people can really do it all and be really good at it. And, you know, just get that out of your head that it's just one person, one size fits all. It is not. And, you know, sometimes it takes a little bit. I agree with you: I'm not, the, you know, the center of the attention in a large group. I'm more of the person that talks to the few people that I know. So I'm,I guess, shy in that sense. So I'm not going to be just talking to a bunch of people that I don't know. But, but as a trainee, as somebody that, you know, is looking for that support, I think it's also good to push yourself a little bit and expand your network, expand or use opportunities. You know, the Society for Neuroscience meeting or any other meeting that you go to to present your work, maybe that's an opportunity to meet other people in your field or there may be trainees in those labs and you just don't know who's going to become maybe a really good mentor in your life. Sometimes it's very huge coincidence that you meet people. Sometimes it's not. But if you don't feel like, if you feel like you need something else, then I think looking for it, asking for that, advice, for that help, I think it'sthe best way to go. And I think most people… of course, you know, we're all busy, but most people, I think, are going to be very welcoming to that from trainees. At least that has been my experience. I don't know, maybe Eduardo, you can tell us more since you have more experience than both of us.

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: So one of the things that I just realized is that the one thing that I think that you basically need to find somebody who basically doesn't care about time, because time is something that is precious. And when you give it away to basically encourage your young colleagues, it's a really cool, cool thing.Because I remember youknow, like what Cori was saying – she would just park herself down there and she would just talk and talk and ask and question and, you know, and it's great. I mean, and I do think that that is part, that is somebody who you need to search for, someone who really will talk to you regardless of what you've got going on. And you, again, you really need, just need to look for people who care about you, not about themselves. And that is, I think that's an essential part of doing this. The people I remember, there's one person in my life, her name is Ann Egan. This lady has actually has seen me grow from a little tadpole, just like Cori, all the way up, all the way up to where I am right now. And even when I actually was applying for this position, you know, when they actually offered me this position and they told me to send them these things, I was asking Ann all these things, and she had no reason to give me information. And she was like, no, you're being too, you know, you know, you're being too humble. You know, you're doing, doing this. You got these credentials, put them on your CV, you know, and she's tough. She's like tough love, just like Karina said. And so when you have somebody like that, that is exactly what you really want. They really are in your corner 24/7. And that to me, if you want to call it mentoring, that's it. But I just think it's just I really have lots of friends and my friends really care for me.

Cori Fain: Yeah. And I want to say that, I don't fully just blame myself. You know, I bothered you a lot, but you reciprocated. So I was like, this is the person who's going to listen to me and wants to support. And I did that a lot. I felt people out. I feel like I study people as much as I study science. Like, I'm always like, kind of, you know, feeling things out and seeing how this person will react or things like that. And I found you as a person who cared and really liked to help young scientists develop and thought that my thoughts wereworthwhile and that I should continue in this. So, you were one of the people that I thought was really great as a mentor. So I definitely consider you a mentor.

Karina Alviña: What you said, Eduardo, about making sure that the mentor or, you know, whoever you're reaching out to, make themselves available, to you. Even I've had conversations with, with people that aresuper busy, and weend up having a phone call on, you know, Sunday morning, for example, because, you know, that'sthe time that they had that we couldtalk. And, and I appreciate that becausethey are making time for me, or if they're not available, they're let me know, oh, I cannotdo itthis week, but, you know, next week, blah, blah, blah. Like there is an effort. There is… it's not just you constantly kind of, emailing ortexting if you're in more close communication, but there's never a response. I think that that's also, you know, not productive for you. You don't get theadvice or you don't get to talk to those people. But maybe, in the long run, you know, it's frustrating. It's not positive. So that is also, I think, something that you can think about as a good mentor. Somebody that makes themselves available, maybe in a very limited way because they're just busy, but they still do. And also, even if they're not talking to you all the time, but they're suggesting to apply for this thing, or I send my students, oh, you know, there's a scholarship here. You know, I think you should apply. You know, kind of spreading that meaning that I take it as okay, this person is thinking about me and is, sharing this, you know, opportunity with me. They don't have to. It's another email that they get or another request that they get, and it can just end there. But no, they sent it to me and they told me, you know, I think you should really do this. I think this could be really good for you. And, just, kind of what Eduardo was saying at the beginning when, Eduardo and Gina, the previous NSP PI, approached me about becoming a PI, it kind of happened that way, too. I was involved with NSP already, and I wanted to continue to be involved in whatever capacity. I didn't care. But they approached me and I felt really special. They're thinking about me for this. This is something that I want to participate anyway. But they're, they're telling me, like, think about this and I was, you know, hesitant a little bit. But Eduardo definitely helped in making me understand that this was a really good opportunity and they wanted me to do it. So that I feel like that's something that a mentor, that if you consider somebody a mentor, this is something that you should be getting. And like, we, we said it, you know, several times. They don't affect them in any. of course, in any negative way, but also inany positive way. It's totally about the mentee.

Eduardo Rosa-Molinar: I saw you when you were an advisor.You had this nice way in which you were working with the students. And I thought, ah, she has, she has potential. And that's the thing. That's why. And that's what kind of encouraged me to basically [inaudible]…

Karina Alviña: Yeah. I think when I was a class advisor is when, we spent several live chats,together. And I think that's where our sort of mentoring relationship, started to kind of develop more, with, I'm saying, me and Eduardo. And I've definitely asked you for advice in other situations and other, professional situations, because I really. I really think that you need mentors for, you know, for life. And I'm glad that you talked about Ann Egan because, that's kind of the example, right? She has mentored, has been a mentor to you throughout your entire career. 

Narrator: We hope this conversation inspired you as you navigate your own mentorship journey. Be sure to subscribe and listen to part two of this conversation. This podcast is brought to you by Neuronline, SfN’s home for learning and discussion, where you can find a variety of additional professional development resources and opportunities to connect with other neuroscientists. Check out the link in the shownotes to learn more. Think Alike is produced by Amanda Kimball, Adam Katz, Cashen Almstead, Taylor Johnson, Emily O’Connor, Dominique Giles [soft g like Jill], and Marie Dussauze [Dū-sōz]. Thanks for listening!